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	<title>Comments on: Intelligent design/creationism and climate change</title>
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	<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/</link>
	<description>The mind doesn't work if it's closed</description>
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		<title>By: ecordy75</title>
		<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/#comment-13304</link>
		<dc:creator>ecordy75</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:45:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openparachute.wordpress.com/?p=306#comment-13304</guid>
		<description>To person who cites the &quot;Man on Mars&quot; as being &quot;settled&quot; as being just a natural phenomenon - you are probably right - I think that Man on Mars image is nothing ... and yet you are a complete moron for citing this example. I will explain why below.

No - the vast majority 90% of scientists and engineers and technicians and other workers who have done the real work - data collection and data analysis - are in agreement that anthropogenic global warming (AGW) is real and serious.  

A news item just came out that blew headlines off of newspapers and news feed across the world recently:  AGW is worse than predicted in 1997!

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091122/SCI.Climate._09.Post.Kyoto/

Same for biological evolution.  No real researcher denies the fact and theory of biological macro-evolution.

If you wish to choose a topic for which most scientists are NOT in agreement: pick USOs, UFOs, the Alien Hypothesis, and crop formations. Most scientists don&#039;t get funded to study these, so most know nothing about it.  Many of them are arm-chair speculators and debunkers. But, many scientists, police officers, medical doctors, and military personnel do accept the Alien Hypothesis for many crop formations and UFOs.

There is not quite as much evidence for Bigfoot and there is to support the Alien Hypothesis. But, there is still quite a bit of good hardcore physical research, often done by the few who have gone out in the field. Their paid job titles are irrelevant to the work they do.
Go to Bigfoot Field Research Organization to read the blogs of expeditions.

However, lowest on the scale of evidence is the theory that outlawing meat (to protect animals - as I support) and outlawing gas cars and mandating building electric only cars will &quot;hurt&quot; the economy. No - it will help those who deserve it. It will rightfully punish those who refuse to take responsibility for their actions.
The free-market extremists have been coddled and saved by reverse socialism = corporate welfare for centuries. They have no concept of the meaning of what real loss of freedom means - such was the kind of confinement vegetarian animals (pigs, chickens, cows, turkeys) feel in factory farms and fur farms (minks, foxes) and laboratories (birds and mammals of all types).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To person who cites the &#8220;Man on Mars&#8221; as being &#8220;settled&#8221; as being just a natural phenomenon &#8211; you are probably right &#8211; I think that Man on Mars image is nothing &#8230; and yet you are a complete moron for citing this example. I will explain why below.</p>
<p>No &#8211; the vast majority 90% of scientists and engineers and technicians and other workers who have done the real work &#8211; data collection and data analysis &#8211; are in agreement that anthropogenic global warming (AGW) is real and serious.  </p>
<p>A news item just came out that blew headlines off of newspapers and news feed across the world recently:  AGW is worse than predicted in 1997!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091122/SCI.Climate._09.Post.Kyoto/" rel="nofollow">http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091122/SCI.Climate._09.Post.Kyoto/</a></p>
<p>Same for biological evolution.  No real researcher denies the fact and theory of biological macro-evolution.</p>
<p>If you wish to choose a topic for which most scientists are NOT in agreement: pick USOs, UFOs, the Alien Hypothesis, and crop formations. Most scientists don&#8217;t get funded to study these, so most know nothing about it.  Many of them are arm-chair speculators and debunkers. But, many scientists, police officers, medical doctors, and military personnel do accept the Alien Hypothesis for many crop formations and UFOs.</p>
<p>There is not quite as much evidence for Bigfoot and there is to support the Alien Hypothesis. But, there is still quite a bit of good hardcore physical research, often done by the few who have gone out in the field. Their paid job titles are irrelevant to the work they do.<br />
Go to Bigfoot Field Research Organization to read the blogs of expeditions.</p>
<p>However, lowest on the scale of evidence is the theory that outlawing meat (to protect animals &#8211; as I support) and outlawing gas cars and mandating building electric only cars will &#8220;hurt&#8221; the economy. No &#8211; it will help those who deserve it. It will rightfully punish those who refuse to take responsibility for their actions.<br />
The free-market extremists have been coddled and saved by reverse socialism = corporate welfare for centuries. They have no concept of the meaning of what real loss of freedom means &#8211; such was the kind of confinement vegetarian animals (pigs, chickens, cows, turkeys) feel in factory farms and fur farms (minks, foxes) and laboratories (birds and mammals of all types).</p>
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		<title>By: That &#8220;Denier vs Septic&#8221; thing again &#171; Greenfyre&#8217;s</title>
		<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/#comment-9417</link>
		<dc:creator>That &#8220;Denier vs Septic&#8221; thing again &#171; Greenfyre&#8217;s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 00:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openparachute.wordpress.com/?p=306#comment-9417</guid>
		<description>[...] Evolution Deniers and Climate Change Deniers has been discussed before, both on this blog and (elsewhere. Another parallel often drawn is &#8220;Climate change deniers are ‘flat-earthers’.&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Evolution Deniers and Climate Change Deniers has been discussed before, both on this blog and (elsewhere. Another parallel often drawn is &#8220;Climate change deniers are ‘flat-earthers’.&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Oct 12/08 Updates from the Blogosphere: &#171; Greenfyre&#8217;s</title>
		<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/#comment-6485</link>
		<dc:creator>Oct 12/08 Updates from the Blogosphere: &#171; Greenfyre&#8217;s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openparachute.wordpress.com/?p=306#comment-6485</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;Intelligent design/creationism and climate change&#8220; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;Intelligent design/creationism and climate change&#8220; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: It&#8217;s Twins!: Evolution and Climate Change Deniers &#171; Greenfyre&#8217;s</title>
		<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/#comment-5995</link>
		<dc:creator>It&#8217;s Twins!: Evolution and Climate Change Deniers &#171; Greenfyre&#8217;s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 04:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openparachute.wordpress.com/?p=306#comment-5995</guid>
		<description>[...] See also Intelligent design/creationism and climate change [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] See also Intelligent design/creationism and climate change [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/#comment-3979</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openparachute.wordpress.com/?p=306#comment-3979</guid>
		<description>Elmer - get real. DaveScot is one the the people most active in promoting this propaganda documentary!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elmer &#8211; get real. DaveScot is one the the people most active in promoting this propaganda documentary!</p>
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		<title>By: elmer</title>
		<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/#comment-3978</link>
		<dc:creator>elmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openparachute.wordpress.com/?p=306#comment-3978</guid>
		<description>DaveScot,

Have yoau heard about Ben Stein&#039;s new Movie coming out tomorrow on Intellegent design called Expelled?

http://www.expelledthemovie.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DaveScot,</p>
<p>Have yoau heard about Ben Stein&#8217;s new Movie coming out tomorrow on Intellegent design called Expelled?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.expelledthemovie.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.expelledthemovie.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Damian</title>
		<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/#comment-3973</link>
		<dc:creator>Damian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openparachute.wordpress.com/?p=306#comment-3973</guid>
		<description>Dale,
If you look at the three key points that I quoted from DaveScot I struggle to see how you could have interpreted otherwise. I know that what you have suggested is in fact your view of how it works but his points seem to be specifically angled at &quot;complex machines&quot;, &quot;interdependent parts&quot; and so on.

Perhaps you can clear this up for us DaveScot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale,<br />
If you look at the three key points that I quoted from DaveScot I struggle to see how you could have interpreted otherwise. I know that what you have suggested is in fact your view of how it works but his points seem to be specifically angled at &#8220;complex machines&#8221;, &#8220;interdependent parts&#8221; and so on.</p>
<p>Perhaps you can clear this up for us DaveScot.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale</title>
		<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/#comment-3972</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openparachute.wordpress.com/?p=306#comment-3972</guid>
		<description>...however, having followed the link to &#039;uncommon descent&#039; I can see why you went immediately to the &#039;bacterial flagellum&#039; example!  (banner image)
-d-</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;however, having followed the link to &#8216;uncommon descent&#8217; I can see why you went immediately to the &#8216;bacterial flagellum&#8217; example!  (banner image)<br />
-d-</p>
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		<title>By: Dale</title>
		<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/#comment-3971</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openparachute.wordpress.com/?p=306#comment-3971</guid>
		<description>Damian,
Just quickly, I don&#039;t think DaveScot is using the &#039;irreducibly complex&#039; kind of argument to make his case for &#039;intelligent design&#039;.  In other words, he&#039;s not trying to &#039;reduce&#039; the &#039;designers&#039; involvement to occasional moments of &#039;intervention&#039;, but rather seems to be suggesting the possibility of ceaseless, constant involvement in the &#039;natural&#039; process...

I just say that because it appears that you are using the &#039;irreducibly complex&#039; scenario to critique him, and to me it seems incongruent to do that if he&#039;s not making that specific argumental move...

Just a side comment...  Go hard.  :)

-d-</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damian,<br />
Just quickly, I don&#8217;t think DaveScot is using the &#8216;irreducibly complex&#8217; kind of argument to make his case for &#8216;intelligent design&#8217;.  In other words, he&#8217;s not trying to &#8216;reduce&#8217; the &#8216;designers&#8217; involvement to occasional moments of &#8216;intervention&#8217;, but rather seems to be suggesting the possibility of ceaseless, constant involvement in the &#8216;natural&#8217; process&#8230;</p>
<p>I just say that because it appears that you are using the &#8216;irreducibly complex&#8217; scenario to critique him, and to me it seems incongruent to do that if he&#8217;s not making that specific argumental move&#8230;</p>
<p>Just a side comment&#8230;  Go hard.  <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>-d-</p>
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		<title>By: Damian</title>
		<link>http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/intelligent-designcreationism-and-climate-change/#comment-3968</link>
		<dc:creator>Damian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openparachute.wordpress.com/?p=306#comment-3968</guid>
		<description>DaveScot,
&lt;blockquote&gt;Intelligent design rests on just on a few assumptions:

1) intelligent agency exists in at least one instance in the universe (humanity) proving the universe can produce instances of intelligent agency (a part of nature)

2) complex machines with many interdependent parts serving a purpose and all abstract codes that serve to specify the construction and operation of such machines are, in all cases where the origin is known, are produced by intelligent agency

3) no demonstrably capable source other than intelligent agency can produce the machines described above&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So if you point to a process that you believe to be &#039;irreducibly complex&#039; and a valid explanation is found for how that apparent complexity got there without the intervention of an intelligent agency does the whole theory go out the window or do the goalposts just get moved?

Does intelligent design (in the absence of positive evidence of a designer) exist only at the margins of our knowledge?

Let&#039;s say, for argument&#039;s sake, that there was an advanced alien civilisation who intervened at some stage in the evolution of life and go us over a hurdle that would have otherwise been insurmountable. It might have been a bit of DNA-fiddling or the planting of special food crops. This hypothesis is entirely possible and I&#039;d say that most scientists would agree in principle. First of all you should find the evidence in life that look like there&#039;s been some intervention (in ID&#039;s case it might be the bacterial flagellum) and exhaust every possible natural explanation before jumping to the conclusion that it was a supernatural event. And, yes, this means actively searching the stars for this alien civilisation as a possible natural explanation. 

What I dislike about the ID approach is that they generally want to jump straight to a supernatural explanation without having even &lt;i&gt;tried&lt;/i&gt; to find natural explanations, alien or otherwise. If it weren&#039;t for this flawed methodology I&#039;m sure the scientific community would be quite supportive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DaveScot,</p>
<blockquote><p>Intelligent design rests on just on a few assumptions:</p>
<p>1) intelligent agency exists in at least one instance in the universe (humanity) proving the universe can produce instances of intelligent agency (a part of nature)</p>
<p>2) complex machines with many interdependent parts serving a purpose and all abstract codes that serve to specify the construction and operation of such machines are, in all cases where the origin is known, are produced by intelligent agency</p>
<p>3) no demonstrably capable source other than intelligent agency can produce the machines described above</p></blockquote>
<p>So if you point to a process that you believe to be &#8216;irreducibly complex&#8217; and a valid explanation is found for how that apparent complexity got there without the intervention of an intelligent agency does the whole theory go out the window or do the goalposts just get moved?</p>
<p>Does intelligent design (in the absence of positive evidence of a designer) exist only at the margins of our knowledge?</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say, for argument&#8217;s sake, that there was an advanced alien civilisation who intervened at some stage in the evolution of life and go us over a hurdle that would have otherwise been insurmountable. It might have been a bit of DNA-fiddling or the planting of special food crops. This hypothesis is entirely possible and I&#8217;d say that most scientists would agree in principle. First of all you should find the evidence in life that look like there&#8217;s been some intervention (in ID&#8217;s case it might be the bacterial flagellum) and exhaust every possible natural explanation before jumping to the conclusion that it was a supernatural event. And, yes, this means actively searching the stars for this alien civilisation as a possible natural explanation. </p>
<p>What I dislike about the ID approach is that they generally want to jump straight to a supernatural explanation without having even <i>tried</i> to find natural explanations, alien or otherwise. If it weren&#8217;t for this flawed methodology I&#8217;m sure the scientific community would be quite supportive.</p>
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