So much disinformation about the war in Ukraine is promoted by the mainstream media that it simply isn’t worth following its reports. I follow a few relatively objective YouTube channels and find them quite helpful. But recently I come across several YouTube channels which I must say are hilarious because they are so biased and their “news” is so false. But I think they have a loyal following – people who congratulate them on the “reporting,” who offer prayers for Ukrainian Army and send the neo-Nazi chant – “Slava Ukraini.”
I recommended a number YouTube channels worth following in my articles How is the war going? and Following the war in Ukraine – an update. I still recommend Military Summary Channel and Defense Politics Asia as the most effective and unbiased. Apart from that there are a couple of channels which are obviously biased towards the Russians or Ukrainians which are not worth following, although they may sometimes present some factual material.
But let’s have a look at these hilarious newcomers. They also present headlines so outrageous to be obviously not true. They use visual content of war scenes and political leaders that is readily available on the internet. The video content bears no relation to the reports being presented. And these reports are so clumsy they seem to have been written by ChatGPT and read by an artificial text reader which repeats all the obvious mistakes and confuses or mispronounces place names.
Let’s have a look at a few of these YouTube channels.
Oracle Eyes
Major Crisis: The Russian Rebellion Reignites in Kaliningrad! Putin didn’t expect this from Poland!
Oracle Eyes is the oldest I have seen so far. It has been reporting this war for 4 months. Before then it was a Turkish-language food channel which had been operating for over 4 years
World Basics
Putin’s Kiev Attack Plan Intercepted! The treacherous plan of Russia, which lost in Bakhmut!
World Basics has been reporting the war for about 2 weeks. Before then it was an English-language Turkish knitting channel which has been operating for more than a year.
ARF Daily Media
The Biggest Shock Of The Day Was When Lukashenko Fired Putin! Even Ukrainians were shocked!
Pembeli örgüler (ARF Daily Media) has been reporting on the war for only 11 days. It was previously a Turkish-language knitting channel and had been operating for over a year.
CPR Daily News
Historic Uprising in Crimea: Hundreds of Thousands of Russians Take to the Streets! Kremlin Toppled
CPR Daily News has been reporting on the war for 2 months. It was previously a Turkish-language sewing channel which had been operating for over 2 years.
Frontline Reports
Huge CHAOS in Moscow! Millions of Russians are Frantically Trying to Flee from Putin!
lezzetnesli (@FrontlineReports41) has been reporting on the war for only 8 days. It was previously an English-language food channel which had been operating for over 2 years. And before that a Turkish-language food channel
Summary
YouTube channels like these may be laughable to anyone who has seriously looked at coverage of this war but they still seem to fool a lot of people. Comments on the channels often urge on the Ukrainian Army, offer up prayers for the soldiers or repeat the neo-Nazi chant, Slava Ukraini.
But I am surprised that coverage of war has come to this. Extreme and obviously false headlines, machine written texts which are machine read. And full of mistakes, mispronounced and mistaken placenames.
I also wonder at the way they appear to have taken over existing non-political channels. Maybe this is why they have so many subscribers (tens and hundreds of thousands) despite their very short coverage of the war.
This may be the future. Now these channels appear ridiculous but as the methods mature perhaps we face a future where our news will be artificially manufactured and presented. And end up fooling most of us.
Your criticism of Youtube channels, biased one way or the other, are a sad straw man. The fact is that Russia is losing this war. The entire world expected this war to be over within a month of Russia’s illegal and immoral invasion. Instead, the world discovered how utterly incompetent the Russian military really is. The emperor no longer has any clothes. This invasion has been a complete failure for Russia.
While you and other RF apologists whine about the economic war that NATO has waged against Russia, you fail to consider that your real problem is with Vladimir Putin. With his own incompetent decisions, he has managed to make NATO stronger and more united than it has ever been. If your problem is with NATO, your real problem is with Putin and superpower ability to assist Joe Biden in his efforts to strengthen NATO.
Thanks to Putin and his bungling failures, Norway & Sweden, two countries which would never have thought to join NATO, have moved to join. NATO thanks you and your dim wittedness, Vladimir.
Now Blinken, Yellin and Kerry are carrying on dialogue with China and a small opening has been created for an improvement of U.S./China relations. Narenda Modi has visited Biden in Washington. . . . Much like Trump has united the Democrats, Putin with his is managing to unite the world. . . . Not to worry, Vladimir, al Assad still likes you.
Yes, Russia is losing . . let me correct that; Russia has already lost this war. And Boris Johnson hammered that fact in when, on Ukraine’s Independence Day, he freely walked the streets of Kyiv months after the world had expected it to be under the control of the Russian Federation. And what normal thinking people clearly witnessed at that moment was the complete ineptitude of the Russian military. . . . Hell, ten months after the world thought Volodymir Zelenskyy would have been dead, he helped feeble 80 year old Joe Biden hobble through a free and independent city so they could laugh at Putin together in front of the world.
But by all means Tokyo Rose, please continue to try to distract and confuse with inconsequential issues, like biased reporting, which occur in every war. You’ve really got your teeth into a Breaking News story there lol.
And here is another such YouTube channel that has just become active on the war in Ukraine. https://youtu.be/EmOSc3Lo-zoIt’s all over in Kremlin! Russian Generals have Officially Joins the Coup! Civil war begins!
Active for only 2 days Emine’s Easy Recipes@ussecretagenda was previously (for over a year) a Turkish-Language food channel. Before that it was an English-language food channel. It currently has 169 thousand subscribers!
What is it with Turkish food and sewing channels? Have they consciously changed content, or have they been taken over?
David, it is a pity you did not engage with the content of my post which was how YouTube Channels appear to be taken over and used for promulgation of extremely naïve and incorrect war coverage – apparently composed by something like ChatGPT and read by machines.
As I said in my summary:
“This may be the future. Now these channels appear ridiculous but as the methods mature perhaps we face a future where our news will be artificially manufactured and presented. And end up fooling most of us.”
But you appear to want to discuss other things.
1: The war. You assert “The entire world expected this war to be over within a month.” Really? I certainly didn’t. I looked at the declared Russian aims of the wars (at the time) and realised this would take a lot of effort and time.
While the initial negotiations did get close to an agreement on military sizes, foreign troops and neutrality I believed, like many people, denazification would be a longer-term project. This would take a lot more than simply making various organisations illegal.
Anyway, it became obvious that NATO would not allow the agreement to materialise and that it has longer term aims of regime change in Moscow and even the dispersal of the Russian Federation.
2: Who has lost? You believe that Russia is losing this war, even lost this war, which seems to be the messages promoted by the YouTube channels I discussed in my post.
Are you prepared to put money on that? Sure, Ukraine itself lost the war given that it lost most of the military men and equipment it had at the start. But the war has matured into a grand war between the Russian Federation and NATO. In effect, a war between the Russian Federation and the USA.
I wouldn’t put money on who the victor will be – given that we are close to nuclear eradication as a species. But I do note that the USA has lost most wars it has engaged in. I have memories of the USA war in Indochina. And the recent long war in Afghanistan is embarrassing for the USA.
Another factor to consider is the beliefs driving NATO and the USA. The economic war was lost because it was based on false beliefs about the Russian economy. I believe from the US and NATO coverage that the USA has similarly false beliefs about the military capacity of the Russian Federation.
That is a problem with believing one’s own propaganda. You end up being unprepared for the real consequences.
3: Kiev and NATO. You seem to be obsessed with these subjects.
Until now, the occupation of Kiev has never been declared as an aim of the Russian military actions. Yes, the initial declared aims were limited, and they have surely changed. But Kiev has yet to be mentioned. Hell, Kharkov and Odessa have not been formally mentioned but most people believe they will eventual become Russian again.
As for NATO they were mentioned in the important European Security Treaty proposals of December 2021. Yes, inclusion of Finland and Sweden goes against those proposals, but Norway membership doesn’t. Norway was a founding member of NATO in 1949 and the draft treaty appears to accept NATO members that had joined “as of 27 May 1997.”
Sweden and Finland membership doesn’t appear to provide much additional cause for concern given their geopolitical role before the war. But Membership of Ukraine and Georgia did. And Ukraine has been an informal member of NATO since the coup in Kiev in 2014.
The current thinking of the Russian leadership is not public, but it appears to me that given this war is now between NATO and the Russian Federation the Russian leadership will want formation of a European Security structure similar to that suggested in their draft proposals. And I suspect the removal of the dangerous missile sites from Poland and Romania, even their secession from NATO. The future borders of Ukraine are currently a matter of speculation given the territorial interests of Poland, Hungary, and Romania, as well as those of the Russian Federation.
4: Zelensky’s death. Yes, that is on the cards, but the gossip is that he will be killed by Ukrainian political and miliary elements – not by Russian agents.
Zelensky reminds me very much of the South Vietnamese leader Diem who was assassinated by his own people and the USA. Zelensky has made many enemies, including those who recognise he is more of a clown than a statesman. He will be lucky to escape to one of the mansions he has bought with the corrupt siphoning of money from aid packages.
Most political parties have been banned, the media has been trimmed to a few progovernment outlets, political leaders have been imprisoned, many politicians have been killed and, unsurprisingly, elections have also been banned. I would say this situation provides plenty of reasons for Zelensky’s imprisonment, exile, or murder.
It appears that by your non-responsive response, you concede that Putin bungled this entire crusade, strengthened NATO, and failed in every objective he attempted.
Ken says, “David, it is a pity you did not engage with the content of my post”
The content of your post? Misinformation occurs in war. Some is accurate, some is not. There is bias on both sides. That about sums it up doesn’t it? The content of your post isn’t worth engaging.
Your quote: “1: The war. You assert “The entire world expected this war to be over within a month.” Really? I certainly didn’t. ”
Response: Really. Please provide a link from early 2022 in which you said this war would take at over a year. You certainly aren’t shy about expressing your views on this platform. If you believed that, you certainly would have said it. Show me where you predicted more than a year long war in Ukraine. Failure to do so will be taken as an admission that you are lying.
Your quote: “While the initial negotiations did get close to an agreement on military sizes, foreign troops and neutrality I believed, like many people, denazification would be a longer-term project. ”
Response: Why are you obsessed with the “denazification” in other countries when New Zealand certainly has it’s share of this problem? Certainly the Christchurch massacre must ring a bell. And yet the majority of your obsession with Nazis is in a country where you don’t live. You realize that, right? Do you see a problem with the regurgitation of propaganda that is spoon-fed to your brain, and how normal people view it?
Your quote: “You believe that Russia is losing this war, even lost this war, . . ”
Response: Yep. Surely one of Putin’s objectives has been to weaken NATO. Did he succeed? If he didn’t succeed, he failed. . Surely one of his objectives must have been to make the Russian people proud to be Russian and to make their lives better? Did he succeed? Nope. 50,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in his disaster. 50,000 Russian soldiers dead and 50,000 Russian families mourning their loss. Did he make Russian lives better? He failed miserably. Your inability to acknowledge that speaks volumes about your mental condition.
Your quote: “Are you prepared to put money on that?”
Response: Bet on a war that has taken 50,000 Russians? You complain about Nazis in other countries, and you want to bet money on wholesale slaughter and war crimes? . . I question who the real Nazi is here. . . The Romans used to make bets about how long a crucifixion would take. No doubt Nazis used to make bets about who would last how long in labor camps. Do you want to put money on how many children will be burned alive in the next war crime that Russia commits in Ukraine? . . . Clean up your own act before you start preaching about alleged Nazis in countries that have nothing to do with you. . . I mean, really, you’re kind of sick to even suggest that.
Your quote: “But the war has matured into a grand war between the Russian Federation and NATO.”
Response: And Putin failed there too. He only managed to make NATO stronger and more united with countries waiting in line to join.
Your quote: “But I do note that the USA has lost most wars it has engaged in. . . . ”
Response: Irrelevant, as usual. Your reliance of logical fallacies betrays your lack of critical thinking skills.
Your quote: “And the recent long war in Afghanistan is embarrassing for the USA.”
Response: Wrong again. The original objective in the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was to capture or kill Osama bin Laden who was hosted by Mulla Omar and the Taliban. That objective was met under President Obama. The objective was met, therefore the war was won and the U.S. withdrew, although the withdrawal was several years later. Nevertheless, the war was won under President Obama.
Your quote: “I believe from the US and NATO coverage that the USA has similarly false beliefs about the military capacity of the Russian Federation.”
Response: Nobody has any false beliefs about the incompetence of the Russian Federation. Remember? The emperor has no clothes. Thanks to their bungling, Ukraine is becoming a military superpower in the region, NATO is stronger, and 50,000 Russian soldiers are dead. And the Russian people are divided on this war. . . Ukraine shot down one of Putin’s glorious, Hypersonic missiles, that he actually bragged about, with a Patriot missile. The emperor has no clothes. Russian military technology is a joke.
One source claims that 14 Russian generals have been killed since Putin’s bungled invasion began. Russia admits to 5. You don’t want to be a Russian general. . . I mean, you really can’t be serious with your juvenile cheerleading for the RF.
And your speculation about the death of the Ukrainian president is right on par with your desire to place a wager on the unnecessary deaths of innocent civilians, much like the Romans and Nazis before you. You’re on the wrong side of history, champ.
David, your demand – “Show me where you predicted more than a year long war in Ukraine. Failure to do so will be taken as an admission that you are lying”
Seriously!! I am lying because I never made any predictions about this war? Seriously? Show me where you made any predictions. That is simply childish.
As for denazification – you seem to miss the message. It was not me that that made any demands on this – it was the Russian Federation in is initial statement about their reasons to invade at that time, February 2022. That aim had nothing to do with me, or with New Zealand and the terrorist attack in Christchurch.
You ask if this war has weakened NATO? We shall see from the results. It’s easy to discuss the attrition of NATO armaments that is occurring, but the end result is the proof of the pudding. As I have said – we may not even get there, given the nuclear weapons held by the Russian Federation and the USA.
You ask of Putin “Did he make Russian lives better?“ Well, I think the reason for his support by the people is that he has made their life a hell of a lot better than the 90s which the USA wants Russia to return to. A period where the demographic consequences were as bad as the famines of the 30s. No doubt about that. As for the current quality of life and attitudes in Russia perhaps you should check it out for yourself. There seems to be no shortages. The economy seems to be going well for people. And the inevitable result of war is patriotism which seems to be high in Russia. Putin’s popularity has reached record heights – although, of course, that won’t be reflected as strongly in the upcoming presidential elections. Just my observation from listening to people in Russia at the moment.
The problem about war and the attitude of fans of one side or the other, is that people believe their own biases, confirmation bias is rife, and people look at the trees instead of the wood. It is the position with the wood that will determine the outcome. As I said the USA and its allies completely misjudged the result of their economic war because they believed their own propaganda and ignored reality. The ignored the wood. I think the same has happened regarding the military outcome, although the failure of the much-proclaimed Ukrainian counterattack seems to be encouraging some western commentators to reverse their previous convictions.
First of all, a correction on my part. I mistakenly cited Norway as country moving to join NATO. You were right to correct me. Obviously I meant Finland as you rightly pointed out.
Your quote: “Seriously!! I am lying because I never made any predictions about this war? Seriously? Show me where you made any predictions. That is simply childish.”
Response: Are you for real? I’m being childish? First of all, I admit I was wrong about the length of the Ukraine war. I had no idea how incompetent the Russian military was. Nobody had any idea what a bungling idiot Putin really is. I thought Putin was cunning and savvy. I never believed it would have lasted more than a month. . . . . But you say you did.
Now, almost a year and a half after Putin’s failed crusade began, you say: “You assert “The entire world expected this war to be over within a month.” Really? I certainly didn’t. ”
You have a platform in which you spend a significant amount of time discussing this war. I don’t.
So where did you say it? You literally spend hours on this site regurgitating propaganda about this war that has been spoon-fed into your brain, and now you’re trying to tell us that you ‘forgot to mention’ how long you believed this war would last? Wouldn’t that have seemed kind of significant at the time, especially when everybody else, except you, thought it would take less than a month?
You’re saying you were the lone reed who knew something nobody else would have believed, and you expect people to believe that it wasn’t significant enough for you to mention.
The logical conclusion here is that you’re lying. Period.
Your quote: “As for denazification – you seem to miss the message. It was not me that that made any demands on this – it was the Russian Federation in is initial statement about their reasons to invade at that time, . . ”
Response: Thank you. You’ve just proven the point I’ve been making about your intellectual laziness which is manifested by your regurgitation of RF propaganda. Point made.
Your next paragraph deserves no response. Speculation is irrelevant . . unless of course you want to make a wager about the end of humanity the way you wished to bet on the wholesale slaughter and war crimes against innocent civilians which include the widespread murders of children.
Your quote: “You ask of Putin “Did he make Russian lives better?” . . . As for the current quality of life and attitudes in Russia perhaps you should check it out for yourself.”
Response: Ok, I will.
I said that the country, Russia, is divided because of this war. 50,000 Russian soldiers have already been killed in Ukraine. According to Forbes, as many as 270,000 Russian soldiers killed and wounded. It is fair to estimate that each of those soldiers came from a family averaging 4 people. This brings the number to over a million Russian citizens who have been profoundly impacted in a negative way by this war because of the death or mutilation of a family member.
According to Wikipedia: “Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022, anti-war demonstrations and protests broke out across Russia. As well as the demonstrations, a number of petitions and open letters have been penned in opposition to the war, and a number of public figures, both cultural and political, have released statements against the war.
“The protests have been met with widespread repression by the Russian authorities. According to OVD-Info, at least 14,906 people were detained from 24 February to 13 March.[112][113] Human rights organisations and reporters have raised concerns of police brutality . . . The government has also moved to crack down on other forms of opposition to the war, including introducing widespread censorship measures. Other individuals who signed anti-war petitions have faced reprisals.[114][115] After Putin announced a partial mobilization of Russia’s military reserves on 21 September, over 2,000 people were detained in mass street protests in the following days.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-war_protests_in_Russia_(2022%E2%80%93present)
And the article goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on to cite specific protests and RF crackdowns, police brutality, and censorship by the government.
And you’re seriously going to maintain that life is good in Russia and the Russian people are happy? With over a million people profoundly impacted by the death or mutilation of a who was family member sent to Ukraine, you say the Russian people are happy.
In the face of objective reality, you come off as either a blatant liar, or a sad case who has become dangerously deluded from the unfortunate brainwashing – which you did to yourself.
To deny that Vladimir Putin’s illegal (and even you have conceded the illegality of it), immoral, invasion which history will view as the grisly holocaust that it is . . to deny that it has been a disaster for Both Sides, . . . and to deny that the world would have been in a better place without Vladimir Putin and his botched, bungled attempted land-grab, is to fly in the face of reality. . . Maybe it’s time for an intervention, Ken.
I thought I include this documentary in response to your assertion that the people of Russia are happy and patriotic. I doubt you’ll watch it because of what they call “cognitive dissonance.” In the unlikely chance that you will watch it, here it is, even though it would never have been shown on InfoWars
One more really quick question. . . And I promise, I haven’t looked, so I don’t know what the answer is, but I’d love to know, .
And this question came to me after watching the Frontline documentary, “Putin’s War At Home,” which you probably haven’t watched, because, . . . ya know . . . . .
But I hope you did ❤️
So here it is. I don’t know what the answer is, so you tell me.
Exactly how many human beings in the world think they can find a better life in Russia and are therefore trying to sneak in? What kind of an illegal immigrant problem does Russia have? How many normal people want to get into Russia to find a better life?
In light of whatever answer you come up with, please explain to me how you believe Putin has made the lives of average Russian citizens . . . more fulfilled?
David, you say – “You have a platform in which you spend a significant amount of time discussing this war. I don’t.”
Come on, that is simply not true. Quite apart from the fact that blogs are long past their use by date (and I was deplatformed by SciBlogs which itself has since gone out of existence as no longer being a useful medium) surely you must have noticed I no longer spend much time blogging about anything. Basically because of advanced age, and a debilitating stroke (it scarred the language area of my brain) I am simply unable to blog much. Not for want of trying – but it has simply been impossible for me to finish the many articles I have started.
As for making predictions – a learned quickly the stupidity of that. I was someone who argued in February 2022 that Russian military exercises were not evidence of a pending invasion. Partly because these were annual events (both the exercises and predictions of invasions). But also, because I believed that there were still some diplomatic possibilities to prevent war (I could not now describe to you what they were so perhaps it was just my hope). I was deluded in much the same way as Zelensky and various political commentators and should have paid more attention to real Russian experts – people like the Late Stephen Cohen.
So, I learned not to make predictions. In fact, on reflection, I have been wrong about all my hopes and hopeful prediction regarding Ukraine ever since the 2013/2014 Maidan demonstrations. Every time. I held out hope for the EU brokered agreement in February 2014. I held out hope for the Minsk Agreements. I held out hope for the December 20121 Russian initiatives to solve the European Security crisis. Wrong every time. Hopefully I have learned from my mistakes (although it is a pity to give up hope that nations cand solve their ethnic differences and countries can honestly sign agreements.
Hope is not a sufficient basis for correct prediction. Neither is bias or belief in one’s’ own propaganda. That is why NATO decisively lost the economic war against Russia they launched.
David. This comment of yours shows you have crudely “misunderstood” my point about Putin’s support and have reverted to the old arguments as a diversion.
What I actually said about Putin’s support – and this the argument you should address – is this:
“You ask of Putin “Did he make Russian lives better?“ Well, I think the reason for his support by the people is that he has made their life a hell of a lot better than the 90s which the USA wants Russia to return to. A period where the demographic consequences were as bad as the famines of the 30s. No doubt about that.”
Have a look at the condition of Russia during the 90s under the alcoholic president Boris Yeltsin. Widespread corruption. A criminal government in the pay of the oligarchs who had robbed the people of their assets – the biggest robbery in history. Gang warfare with heavy military weapons in the streets of cities (Putin admits when he moved to Moscow he slept with a pistol under his pillow). Government positions were determined by oligarchs like Berezovsky (who incidentally was partly responsible for Putin’s elevation – poetic justice).
Child prostitutes operating in the streets of cities. Pensioners denied the pensions. Scientists and other intellectuals working unpaid. Plummeting of the life expectancy. Studies show the demographic effects of the 90s were similar to that of the famines in the 30s.
And these “liberal, democratic” reforms of the 90s were carried out with the assistance of the US, who incidentally blatantly helped Yeltsin to win the 1996 elections (his popularity had plummeted to about 5% whereas the Communist candidate was in the 30s. Expectations were that the election would be cancelled until the US came along with their assistance).
Yes, of course, Russia was also being stripped on their natural resources. The Russians came to see that period as an example of colonialism.
The new president fought against these problems. He limited the power of the oligarchs, many of whom fled overseas. He saved national ownership of the natural resources. And gradually worked to overcome the economic and social situation of the 90s.
One could analyse more what Putin has and hasn’t done. But there is no doubt he had the people’s support. By this I mean polling about whether he is doing a good job. This is different to election results (if I was Russian, I probably would not vote for Putin, but I would say he is doing a good job if I was polled).
In recent years Putin’s popularity has been above 60%. Recently it was about 80% (the effect of patriotism?) but shot up to 90% after the defeat of Prigozhin’s mutiny. You might like to reject these figures to confirm your own bias, but the Levada polling group is independent of the government, and in fact often criticised by the government with some politicians wanting to register it as a foreign agent. Serious commenters do accept Levada’s figures.
I repeat, the figures are not electoral figures and while Putin will no doubt win the next election if he stands (and if it takes place – difficult to predict the future) his electoral results would be a lot lower.
A politician’s popularity is not determined by how many people leave or come to a country, or even by limited protests over specific policies. It is determined by what the politician does to make the life of people better and to overcome the huge injustices of the past.
David, let me correct your claim that “even” I have conceded the illegality of” the Russian invasion. I said that as my initial response. I rejected the very legalistic justification of the war as the standard hypocritical justifications all counties (and particularly the US) have made when they invade other countries.
But I have since added that as I learned more about what was happening in Donbass, the magnitude of the NATO arming of the Ukrainian armed forces (including the neo-Nazi National battalions) after the 2014 coup, and the intentions of NATO governments with respect to the Russian Federation (regime change, breakup of the country) I have come to be more accepting of the stated legal justifications.
I have only to imagine what would happen to the citizens of the Donbass and of Crimea if the current Ukrainian government won this war. I have only to look at what has happened to people in the areas which the Russian army withdrew from in the Kharkov and Kherson areas.
We should remember the Wolyn massacre of over a hundred thousand Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Russians by the Ukrainian nationalists 8o years ago yesterday. In this video I saw this morning a Polish woman describes the massacre and discusses some of the current results. Well worth watching.
Remember, the current regime in Kiev ignores that massacre but erects statues to the leaders of the nationalist organizations responsible and names streets after them – all the while removing statues to soldiers who fought the Nazis.
Lols.
David seems to believe this is Putin’s war. That Putin started it and is failing in his grand objectives.
On one level I can agree, this war will slowly bleed Russia dry and probably strengthen NATO in the longer term.
But, it’s not a matter of it being a failure of some grand aggressive strategy of Putin’s. It’s a matter of the success of USA’s grand strategy which involved NATO expansion and the reduction of Russia’s power economic and geopolitical power. China will be next and USA is already chest thumping over that. In USA’s eyes, USA has to top dog, the only dog, nothing less will do for the world’s most militarily violent nation since WW2.
Ukraine is USA’s war, Putin was a foolish dupe to take the bait and walk into it . And baited he certainly was.
And yes Ken, MSM is completely in thrall to US propaganda and bad players. Good information and truth has always been the first casualty of conflict, on both sides.
Richard says, “David seems to believe this is Putin’s war. . .”
Yes, Richard, David believes this is Putin’s war. That’s because David believes his own eyes. Take 2 minutes and watch this exchange, which occurred three days before Putin’s illegal war began. Here we see Putin pushing one of his security advisors to say exactly what he wants to hear. There’s no freedom of thought with this asshole. And yes, Richard, Putin WILL be judged by history as one of its great assholes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-u8EoWcI
Any comments, Richard? Or are you going to subscribe to the time-honored mantra, “Why should I believe my lying eyes when I can believe the propaganda that makes me feel good?” btw, Richard, did they show this clip on RT or whatever RF propaganda you stuff into your brain?
Now I’m not a betting man, but I would be willing to put 50 bucks on a wager that this guy is dead now.
Just as Iraq was Bush’s war, Ukraine is Putin’s war. If you want to blame the U.S. for Putin forcing his counsel to go along with it, amassing troops on the Ukraine border and telling the world he had no intention of invading . . . and then invading, go right ahead. Far be it from me to quash you delusions.
As for you, Ken, they call this a straw man argument: “Have a look at the condition of Russia during the 90s under the alcoholic president Boris Yeltsin. ”
Ok . . . I’ll do what you just did, Ken. (As a Trump apologist would say) “Life in the United States under Donald Trump, with the pandemic, with the divisions, with cities burning, with the culture wars, with the white nationalism, with the world laughing at our president, . . . all that was also a hell of a lot better than it was during the Civil War.
I never asked you to compare current conditions in Russia to some horrible point in the past of your choosing so you could tell me how great things are now. I asked you, ‘are people in Russia happy and do they have fulfilled lives?’
And one metric of this can certainly be seen by how many people outside the country are trying to become Russian citizens. Because, why else would you want to move to another country unless you believed your life would be better there? . . I don’t see that Russia has a big immigration problem.
But sure, let’s dwell on a massacre 80 years ago and blame all our sins on that. . . . Let’s look at living conditions from more than 20 years ago, pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves how great things are now . . . all while murdering children in another country and sending our young men to be slaughtered – to such an extent that over 1,000,000 of our citizens have at least one family member who has died or been wounded in Ukraine.
Your quote: “As for the current quality of life and attitudes in Russia perhaps you should check it out for yourself. There seems to be no shortages. The economy seems to be going well for people. And the inevitable result of war is patriotism which seems to be high in Russia.”
Bullshit
I noticed you had nothing to say about Putin’s sweeping censorship, or the lack of freedom of speech which is enforced by crushing police brutality and unreasonable prison sentences for expressing views against the war, or the fact that more than a million Russian citizens have at least one family member who has been killed or wounded in Ukraine. . . . Yeah. Normal people would want to live there. But hey, they don’t have a border problem do they.
To be fair, I had some of same complaints during the Iraq war. During the Bush Administration, the press was not allowed to photograph coffins from Iraq arriving at Dover Air Force Base. Right wing media tried to shame and humiliate anybody who spoke up against the Iraq war, including Cindy Sheehan, the mother of a fallen soldier. Our country behaved shamefully. . . . . But, to our credit, nobody ever got a 10 year prison sentence for putting a price sticker on merchandise in a store saying that inflation is as bad now as it was in the 1990s.
I had asked you how many people outside Russia are trying to get into Russia because they believe their lives would be happier and more fulfilled there.
By your straw-man skirting of the question, I assume the answer is about zero. Instead, you answered this way:
Ken: “A politician’s popularity is not determined by how many people leave or come to a country, or even by limited protests over specific policies. It is determined by what the politician does to make the life of people better and to overcome the huge injustices of the past.” . . . . . . . . (Injustices of the past? That’s your justification for a barrage of war crimes committed during an illegal invasion, wholesale murder of children, and the entire world on edge because of a potential nuclear holocaust? – All because of injustices of the past?)
By “limited protests over specific policies,” you obviously mean mass, widespread protests against the policy of their fellow Russians and family members being sent into a meat grinder, crushing censorship, lack of freedom of speech, police brutality, and outrageous prison sentences for the mildest of offences.
Ok. Whatever you say. It’s kind of like when I tell my wife, “I don’t watch porn,” and what I really mean is, . . “I don’t watch porn being filmed, at the studio, in person, when other people are around.” Six of one, half dozen of the other. Potato Tomato. . . . 😵💫
On another note, good luck to you, Ken. I’m sorry to hear about your health. You’re my favorite Putin cheerleader.
Richard, I think talk of “Putin’s war” is just childish (as are most promoted ideas with the word ”Putin” included).
It makes much more sense to describe it as USA’s war. Especially as US strategic thinkers have seen this war as probably inevitable. For some time, they have seen Europe/Eurasia as a future rival threat to their own hegemony. This was reflected in the old cold war as the rivalry of the two superpowers – the USA and the USSR.
During the Second World War these two blocks struggled for position, both recognising they were to compete after the war. There were those in the USA who during the war promoted the idea of striking the USSR at the end of the war when it was weak to remove that threat. Of course, the collapse of the USSR was a godsend to these people who saw this catastrophe as a victory.
Their dream had come true – in fact, the victory was double as the USSR withdrew from Eastern Europe shortly before its own untimely collapse. The USSR had maintained those countries and the GDR as a protective blanket to guarantee their own security. While that was oppressive this was not necessary. Austria chose neutrality and Soviet troops withdrew from there. The same thing could have happened in in Germany if the west had agreed to Soviet ideas of a neutral, disarmed, Germany.
While Gorbachev’s ideas for withdrawal from Europe appeared great on humanitarian grounds it should have happened in an organised way by means of proper negotiation with NATO and a rigid treaty (perhaps describing the simultaneous dissolution of NATA as well as the Warsaw pact). Gorbachev did get promises from US negotiators that NATO would not move one inch east of the then current positions. The promises proved worthless as have many future agreements (eg the Minsk agreements).
The breakup of the USSR was similarly badly handled. I suspect the unfortunate coup attempt against Gorbachev was a huge factor as previous to that there had been proposals for a weaker union which had got support from the populations of the major republics in a referendum. The coup attempt, and Yeltsin’s desire for Russian independent (perhaps resulting from his personal competition with Gorbachev) torpedoed the idea.
The disorganised collapse, with the resulting looting of the country’s natural resources and people’s property left a single superpower standing. The superpower, the USA participated in the looting and the political and economic changes which lead to the establishment of a corrupt, criminal state with a terrorised and impoverished population. The 90s were a tragedy for Russia and no one wants to go back there. This is why liberals receive so little electoral support today (which is perhaps a tragedy).
So, for a period we were faced with a unipolar world. The USA could dictate to other countries about how they should organise their politics and economics. Even to what values their societies shouydl have. Today that period is looked on with resentment by most of the world. Today people worldwide want a multipolar world where a country’s independence is respected. I wrote about this in The west vs the rest – the world is changing
But since 2000 and the period of Putin’s presidency (except for 2008-2012) Russia has recovered from the tragedy of the 90s. It has become a lot stronger and can exert its influence on the world (but, unfortunately, not on the USA it turned out). It became a superpower and therefore a threat to US hegemony. At the same time, China has also become a lot stronger, politically, economically, and militarily. So, we have three superpowers in the world. (I should note that in contrast Ukraine remained, more or less, in the 90s state with a corrupt, criminal, political system run in the interest of the oligarchs)
Ideally, we should have agreement on a multilateral world where no superpower seeks hegemony and where there is respect for the interests of others. The US is refusing to accept this. For a long time, they saw Ukraine as a way they could undermine Russia’s power. US missiles in Ukraine would provide a dangerous threat. But the revival of nationalism meant that the US could use the neo-Nazi elements in Ukraine to develop their anti-Russian hatred and undermine Russia’s power.
On independence Ukraine described itself as neutral. Its population largely accepted that. While elements promoted membership of NATO this was always rejected in any polling. Ukraine could have become a prosperous and peaceful country, to some extent bridging east and west and profiting from trade. Its neutrality would have helped ensure peace in Europe.
But that was not allowed to happen. And the USA is largely to blame. That is why intelligent watchers of the region have for many years been predicting a war.
War was inevitable. It is childish to blame it on one person. Especially Putin who had in many ways tried hard to develop a sensible European security framework and peace in Ukraine with guaranteed borders. I believe he was dragged into this war reluctantly.
Firstly, a general comment David, can we agree that in any discussion here that the partner be respectful. That we avoid name-calling and labelling (which, anyway, only are excuse for lack of argument).
I realise many people have an obsession with Putin. This may be understandable because of the intense demonisation of him, and his country, we have been exposed to. I believe some people, who should know better, resort to the “Putin cheerleader,” “Putin apologist,” etc., type of arguments as an unconscious response to their realisation that Putin has actually been very successful as a politician (far outshining the ones we have in our countries) and wish to avoid any discussion of home.
But my concern is far wider than this blog. We have been exposed to a high level of censorship since this war started – and the most effective censorship is to shootdown anyone who dares to present a view contrary to the official narrative. Such people have been accused of being apologists for Putin, or worse, and in some countries have actually faced legal actions. Some have been sanctioned, bank accounts seized, etc.
So please don’t indulge in that practice here – perhaps spend some time imagining what sort of labels I could use against use as a way of avoiding discussion. Perhaps a Biden cheerleader, or a Kamala cheerleader. One shudders to think how low I could go.
I don’t think it achieves anything positive to indulge in this sort of abuse.
Don’t flatter yourself, David. You didn’t demonise Putin. You simply uncritically absorbed the narrative imposed on you. Which shows a lack of independent thought.
Meanwhile the country Putin presides over (and have far more experience of the man) don’t accept that narrative. Currently he has 90% support for his work.
No comment on the Frontline piece? No comment on Putin’s sweeping censorship. police brutality, and outrageous prison sentences when dissent occurs? No comment on the lack of freedom of speech? No comment on the 270,000 killed or wounded Russian soldiers from this war?
Please explain how those 90% of Russians who support President Putin can possibly have an informed opinion when the State controls the narrative in their country. Please explain why very few people living outside the country, who aren’t manipulated by state-controlled media, actually want to live inside Russia.
I realize it is uncomfortable for you to face these questions. It’s called cognitive dissonance. Try to get over it and look at the situation honestly. . . As it is, right now, if your mind was a parachute you would plummet to your death.
I took the liberty of looking up some stats and other facts . . . which, as it turns out, don’t exactly line up with with your narrative of a 90% approval rating for President Putin among the Russian people:
“Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine that started in late February 2022, more than 300,000 Russian citizens and residents are estimated to have left Russia by mid-March 2022, at least 500,000 by the end of August 2022, and an additional 400,000 by early October, for a total of approximately 900,000. This number includes economic migrants, conscientious objectors, and some political refugees.”
“Political refugees?” Emigrating from Russia where 90% of the people support its president? . . Why would people living in a free and open society, where diversity of thought is openly encouraged, where there are no reprisals for freedom of speech, consider themselves “political refugees?”
“Those who have fled tend to be young and well-educated professionals, leading some economists to suggest that the Russian brain drain is worsening. More than 50,000 Russian information technology specialists have left Russia.”
You may not realize this, but polls and referendums with unusually high percentages one way or the other can sometimes be suspect. For example, in 1938, Austria was annexed by Germany after a referendum in Austria with a result of 99.7% of Austrians voting in favor of German annexation of Austria. . . . Do you really believe that number was an accurate reflection of Austrian thought in 1938?
For example, in 2014 the Crimean Status Referendum took place with a result of 97% of the voters favoring Russian annexation of the peninsula. . . . Do you really believe that number was an accurate reflection of Crimean thought in 2014? . . . . Well, of course you do.
One more thing, Ken, in response to your comment. You’re asking me to be polite and respectful to someone who supports the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians, the burning alive of babies and children, the destruction of infrastructure upon which innocent civilians depends, . . and other war crimes which have been thoroughly documented by Amnesty International.
To clarify, David, I am asking you to be respectful towards your discussion partners – people like me.
To call me a “Putin cheerleader” is simply indulging in a personal attack instead of honestly participating in a rational discussion.
I do not avoid arguments with you by accusing you of being a Banderite. That would be extremely disrespectful considering the genocide the Banderites carried out. I consider your personal attacks on me as the same level of disrespect considering the crimes you accuse Putin of, whether you are correct or not.
David, regarding the Levada polling figures – even most western sources accept them – on the whole. With such respected polling results we do not have to accept the actual figures, but it is traditional to accept the figures as indicative. That is why all credible commenters do accept that Putin has a lot of support – and we also have electoral figures (which are not the same as the polling support category) which shows that Putin has high support (although not in centres like Moscow and St Petersburg).
As for Crimea – again most credible western commentators do accept the Levada polling figures (while recognising that referendum figures often do not reflect the opposition who choose to boycott referendums).
The overwhelming support for Crimea’s return to Russia is understandable considering their history. Crimea was against its inclusion in an independent Ukraine, preferring independent Crimean status in the proposed Union with ex-Soviet state. Crimeans struggled since 1991 for independence from Ukraine or at least special status within Ukraine. Its experience within Ukraine was very negative as it suffered from lack of investment, etc.
You may wish to continue with your story that the Crimeans preferred to stick with a government in Kiev which resulted from a coup overthrowing a government they voted for and was influenced by ultra-nationalists who had already attacked Crimean’s during the Maidan period and subsequently after the overthrow of the elected government. But you ignore the facts.
I repeat a point I have made several times to you. You simply refuse to acknowledge the violent overthrow of the democratically elected president of Ukraine in February 2014. You simply ignore the removal of any legal government in that country and the understandable conflict that caused. How do you think you can make any intelligent comment on what happened in Ukraine if you refuse to actually consider what happened in that country at the time?
David, I will take your comment and make a correction:
“No comment on the Frontline piece? No comment on Zelensky’s sweeping censorship. police brutality, and outrageous prison sentences when dissent occurs? No comment on the lack of freedom of speech? No comment on the 270,000 killed or wounded Ukrainian soldiers from this war?
Please explain how those Ukrainians who support President Zelensky can possibly have an informed opinion when the Zelensky controls the narrative in their country. Please explain why very few people living outside the country, who aren’t manipulated by state-controlled media, actually want to live inside Ukraine.”
This is far more accurate. Although the number’s killed is rumoured to be much higher. And it is interesting that the UN figures for where those fleeing from Ukraine actually end up show Russia has taken the largest number of refugees. See my article Where are Ukrainian refugees going? – an update where I estimate that 48% of the Ukrainians that have left the country since 2014 fled to Russia.
There are reasons for this, of course. The war is basically taking place in the regions that are historically Russian and where the people a culturally and linguistically Russian.
I have no idea what you are talking about with your reference to Frontline.
I finish with the actual comment you made which I think is a very accurate description of your situation given that you have never acknowledged the violent overthrow of the Ukrainian president in February 2014 or the military aggression against the civilians of the Donbass since then.
“I realize it is uncomfortable for you to face these questions. It’s called cognitive dissonance. Try to get over it and look at the situation honestly. . . “
You have no idea what I am talking about with my reference to the Frontline piece. That might be part of the problem here. If you don’t read my comments and take a look at the links I have provided, no rational communication can possibly take place.
Nevertheless, I’m out. It’s pointless to try to reason with someone who is bent on defending a war criminal and who continually relies on Whataboutism.
David, this reminds me of the Faulty Towers episode where Basil was warned not to discuss the war. (Actually, this is good advice in social situations these days because of the level of misinformation and ethnic hatred).
You consistently attempt to ignore the 2014 Coup in Kiev. How can anyone understand what happened in Crimea or the current war if they exclude the coup from their considerations.
But there we go. Talk about the coupd and some people run away.
Ken, I’m afraid I don’t watch Faulty Towers, so your reference was wasted on me.
Actually, I’m glamping right now, but I’m always glad to move my mind from this happy place in the Nexus back to the mundane world of political discussion. (Kudos to you if you get the Nexus reference 😉 . . . which, btw, has nothing to do with wrestling.)
What’s with all whataboutism? What about the coup. What about 2014 in Kyiv. You may not realize this, but humanity is not yet capable of travelling back in time. We can cry and lament about the past all we want, but we will never be able to change it.
All we can do is try to affect the wrongs of today, hope to stop any current atrocities, and possibly affect the future in a positive way.
If I believed for one minute that some kind of admission from me about Kyiv in 2014 would end the atrocities being committed in Ukraine today I would do it in a heartbeat.
However, if you are saying that war crimes committed by Russia in Ukraine today are a direct result of a political situation that occurred in Kyiv, then you are admitting that Russia is in clear violation of the Black Sea Fleet Treaty Agreement.
You will recall that according to the Treaty, which it signed in 1997, Russia was bound to “respect the sovereignty of Ukraine, honor its legislation and preclude interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine” and, furthermore, Russian military personnel had to show their “military identification cards” when crossing the Ukrainian-Russian border; Russian forces could operate “beyond their deployment sites” only after “coordination with the competent agencies of Ukraine.”
It’s Their Treaty!! They agreed to it. They signed it. And now they’re in violation of it.
Surely you don’t approve of war crimes being committed by Russia which have been thoroughly documented by multiple sources.
David, you talk about “honor its legislation and preclude interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine” and yet you adamantly refuse to discuss the coup which threw away Ukraine’s legislation and the US involvement in it which was a blatant interference in Ukraine’s internal affairs.
It’s not a matter of crying and lamenting the past – but pointing out that if the EU brokered settlement of the Maidan crisis in February 2014 had been followed, or that the Minsk agreements had been followed we would not now be in this situation. And these things were not followed because of the role of the ultranationalists (nurtured by the USA) and European politicians who (by their subsequent admission) never intended that the Minsk agreements would be followed. They chose instead the path of war and have bitten off far more than they expected.
NATO (the USA) is crying over spilt milk and want to get a ceasefire – but they simply won’t get it on their grounds. They have lost.
Ken, speaking of “adamantly refusing to discuss” something, I’ll ask a second time:
“Surely you don’t approve of war crimes being committed by Russia which have been thoroughly documented by multiple sources.” Do you?
I wonder if you even hear yourself. Your quote: “It’s not a matter of crying and lamenting the past, . . ”
Then you go on to lament the past: ” if the EU brokered settlement of the Maidan crisis in February 2014 had been followed, or that the Minsk agreements had been followed we would not now be in this situation.”
Because this is exactly what you’re doing. Re-read your own paragraph.
And no, the only reason “we” are in this situation is because Vladimir Putin decided to ignore the Black Sea Fleet Treaty which his country signed and agreed to, by involving itself in the internal affairs of the sovereign nation of Ukraine where his military is now committing atrocities against the Ukrainian people, which has led to mass dissent in Russia, widespread protest, crushing police brutality, sweeping censorship, and outrageous prison sentences for the mildest of offences (like putting a label on merchandise in a store saying this is the worst inflation since the 1990s – Hardly a prison-worthy offense, wouldn’t you agree?)
The past is the past. Ukraine is what it is. Nothing can be done about that. Crying and lamenting about it is pointless. The only thing we can hope to affect are the atrocities occurring today.
So I’ll ask a third time: Do you approve of the war crimes being committed by Russia in Ukraine today? Or would you rather put the blame on things in the past which cannot be changed?
I re-read your first paragraph. Here it is: “David, you talk about “honor its legislation and preclude interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine” and yet you adamantly refuse to discuss the coup which threw away Ukraine’s legislation and the US involvement in it which was a blatant interference in Ukraine’s internal affairs.”
You are being intellectually dishonest here.
The quote you’ve taken from me, “honor its (Ukrainian) legislation and preclude interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine,” isn’t from me, it’s from the Black Sea Fleet Treaty, which Russia agreed to.
You go on to say, “and yet you adamantly refuse to discuss the coup which threw away Ukraine’s legislation and the US involvement . .”
Do you see what you’ve done here? You’ve taken a portion of an agreement in which Russia agreed not to involve itself in Ukrainian affairs and you knowingly, and wrongly applied that agreement to a country that never agreed to it.
what·a·bout·ism (a logical fallacy)
nounBRITISH
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.
In the future, please try to avoid the logical fallacies. These arguments are unworthy of you.
By the way, do you approve of the atrocities and war crimes being committed by Russia in Ukraine today?
David, I will rephrase this charge of yours against me:
“So I’ll ask a third time: Do you approve of the war crimes being committed by Russia in Ukraine today? Or would you rather put the blame on things in the past which cannot be changed?”
Rephased against you:
“Do you approve of the way you have been beating your wife today? Or would you rather put the blame on things in the past which cannot be changed?”
See the trick.
You talk about war crimes as if they have happened without providing any evidence and as if they had been carried out by one side without providing any evidence. You think you can do that because of the widespread Russophobia – a racist atmosphere where general charges like that can be made and people declared guilty without evidence.
Why not talk about specifics – provide your evidence of war crimes?
What about starting with the declaration of President Poroshenko from late 2014 in his declaration to the people of Donbass who were being shelled and bombed by Ukrainian forces?
“we [in Ukraine] will have work; they – [in the Donbas] won’t. We will have pensions – they won’t. We will care for our children and pensioners – they won’t. Our children will go to school, to kindergartens – their children will sit in cellars. They don’t know how to organize or do anything. This, ultimately, is how we will win this war.”
Or perhaps you prefer to discuss something more current (you think) like the ICC declaration of war crimes against Putin and Ms Lvova-Belova for deporting children. Why not as I have specifically researched that situation, so I am able to discuss specifics?
Your quote: “You talk about war crimes as if they have happened without providing any evidence . . . Why not talk about specifics – provide your evidence of war crimes?”
I guess you failed to watch the second Frontline piece I provided, which was entitled, “Putin’s Attack on Ukraine: Documenting War Crimes,” in which specific war crimes were being documented in, among other places, Bucha.
Ken, we can only lead a horse to water. We can’t make him drink.
It really is pointless to have a rational discussion with you.
(by the way, the obvious answer to the question should have been, “No. I don’t approve of war crimes being committed today by Russia in Ukraine. . . . This reminds me of when Liz Cheney asked Michael Flynn, under oath, whether he believed in the peaceful transfer of power in the United States, and he pled the 5th. The answer should have been easy.)
Correction: I should have said, “It really is pointless to TRY to have a rational discussion with you.”
Good luck with your life, and by all means, Never Ever look at any evidence that is provided to you which may contradict your preconceived biases. You might get a headache.
But providing links is not a legitimate form of discussion anyway. Why not discuss the evidence you rely on? Otherwise, I have no idea what you are talking about and can only conclude you have no idea either (because you would not rely on links if you could provide evidence).
Bu you are running away and the mention of evidence. Just as you run away at the mention of the ovehtwo of the elected voegernment in Kiev in Febryay 2014.
Your quote: “But providing links is not a legitimate form of discussion anyway.”
What are you talking about. You do it all the time.
Besides, the link of mine which you just referenced was the first of two Frontline pieces that I provided. The one you just referenced documented widespread dissent within Russia itself. That link works for me.
This is the second link I have already provided. You wish me to discuss it. I could describe the digging up of civilians with hands tied behind their backs, but it would be more effective for you to watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSFjGXKS59Q
I’m not running away from discussion about the coup in Kyiv. It’s simply irrelevant to illegal war crimes being committed today. It’s like saying that if the Maori people rose up today and began slaughtering New Zealanders of European descendent, they would be entirely justified to do so because of the theft of their land.
You basically rely on two arguments. What you call Russophobia, and the 2014 coup. Neither are justifications for war crimes.
There is the problem with these sorts of allegations (“I could describe the digging up of civilians with hands tied behind their backs”) is simply narrative – that both sides use. Evidence will be presented by never treated to objective and detailed investigation.
The punitive treatment of citizens in the places which Russia withdrew from have also been used in documentaries on RT as evidence of the war crimes committed by the Kiev regime. These have been documented for places like Bucha, the Kharkiv and the Kherson regions. Especially where the punitive military groups sent in to seek out “collaborators” are groups like the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion – which happened in Bucha.
The dubious nature of this sort of evidence can be seen in this brief video from Bucha.
There is a real fear among Ukrainians remaining behind when Russian forces withdraw – and even among Ukrainians living in areas not yet “liberated” by Russia like Kharkov which a “Russian city.” It is easy to be charged with collaboration which has harsh legal penalties – and in many cases the law doesn’t even operate.
His crime, as a blogger, was to hold very interesting round table discussions about geopolitics and the situation in Ukraine. Several of which I have watched.
There have also been well documented cases where people fleeing the war zone in the Kharkiv and Zaphorozia regions in car convoys have been murdered when the car convoy was fired upon.
Of course, the indiscriminate shelling of residential and business areas of Donetsk city over the last 9 years is well known and the deaths resulting from this have been documented.
Now, I think we need to accept that war crimes are to a large extent inevitable. Soldiers can easily lose their cool in situations that are very emotional.
I have seen well documented cases of POWs being shot by both the Russian side and the Ukrainian side (particularly the Kraken and Georgian militias). It would be nice to believe that the military administrations would deal with such crimes committed by their own troops.
You realize that 90% of your response was little more than Whataboutism. Let’s review exactly what that is:
what·a·bout·ism
nounBRITISH
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.
Of course retribution has always existed for collaboration with the enemy. In my own country, as far back as its inception, Loyalists were hunted down and hanged after the Revolutionary War. . . . Forward ahead to post WWII in France where Nazi collaborators were shot. In Vietnam after the U.S. left, collaborators were killed. And it’s a safe bet that collaborators are being hunted down today by the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Certainly you’re not shocked by this. In fact, I’d be surprised if there were no consequences for collaboration with the invader.
Then there’s the physical evidence, “the digging up of civilians with hands tied behind their backs, or the corpses found at 144 Yablunska Street. . . As expected, you employ a barrage of defense techniques to question its authenticity. Unfortunately, there are the eyewitness accounts and video evidence of these same civilians, with hands tied behind their backs, being marched by the Russian military to that same address, 144 Yablunska Street.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me, as it would to any normal person.
To your other point of whataboutism, of course there is a huge difference between civilians being killed as collateral damage, and the intentional murder of civilians by the military.
You say, ” It would be nice to believe that the military administrations would deal with such crimes committed by their own troops.”
I think the U.S. has been fairly good about that. For example, . . In Afghanistan, Robert Bales was convicted for the murders of 16 Afghan civilians. Andrew Holmes was one of 5 soldiers convicted of killing 3 Afghans in Kandahar. Soldiers who photographed themselves urinating on dead Taliban were punished. (And in my mind, their real crime was Stupidity, photographing themselves doing it.) . . . In Iraq, everyone involved in the torture and abuse of prisoners at Abu Gharaib was punished. . . Sure, the ring-leaders of that illegal invasion are still free, but as I recall, Donald Rumsfeld may still be arrested for war crimes if he ever visits Germany. Now THAT would be nice.
Regarding the Russian illegal invasion itself and the basis for it, something occurred to me about the fundamental root cause of it that never really dawned on me before. You continually blame it on a coup, but I think it’s even more basic than that.
I realized it when I watched this clip of Putin berating one of his security advisors who suggested more negotiations with Kyiv rather than an immediate illegal invasion.
Looking at it again, I think I misinterpreted that exchange. More likely, Putin required complete verbal support for recognition of Donbass sovereignty. My bad. Please ignore the question I put to you.
Regarding the sovereignty of the two breakaway republics in Donbass. It might have been better if the Russian Federation had recognised their sovereignty in 20114/2014. Instead, Putin pursued a diplomatic process which would have led to preserving the territorial sovereignty of Ukraine and an arrangement recongising the language rights of ethnic minorities. Despite this being an arrangement Europeans should have recognized (often used in their own countries) the leaders of Germany, France and Ukraine hypocritically adhered to the Minsk agreement while in reality using this time to rearm Ukraine to prepare for a military, rather than peaceful, solution to the presence of the Donbass republics.
The Minsk Agreements were unanimously endorsed by the UNSC – so the hypocrisy was even more widespread. The USA obviously participated in the rearming of Ukraine and even New Zealand/Aotearoa showed its hypocrisy because it was a member of the UNSC at the time but has since gone along with sending arms to Ukraine and supported the US role in this mess.
Putin admits he was mistaken to trust western leaders in these and other agreements. I think he admits that the Russians should have sent their troops into Easten Ukraine in 2014 when there was no legitimate government in Kiev, armed militias were invading the area and ultranationalists were committing atrocities while the Ukrainian army had no legitimacy, with a large proportion defecting to the rebels. It was obviously considered at the time as the Federation Council gave the president the legitimate rights to send troops to fight outside Russian Borders. The Council withdrew the permission after several weeks when nothing happened.
Recognition of the Donbass republics did not happen until early 2014 – it was a necessary legal step to justify the invasion that occurred that February.
David, this charge of “whataboutism” seems to be used a lot by the apologists of the role of neo-Nazis and the US in this war. Here you are simply using it to avoid a proper investigation of charges. You want everything your propagandists allege to be accepted without any critical and intelligent consideration. As a scientist, that approach is foreign to me.
This becomes absurd.
You say:
“Then there’s the physical evidence, “the digging up of civilians with hands tied behind their backs, or the corpses found at 144 Yablunska Street. . . As expected, you employ a barrage of defense techniques to question its authenticity. Unfortunately, there are the eyewitness accounts and video evidence of these same civilians, with hands tied behind their backs, being marched by the Russian military to that same address, 144 Yablunska Street.”
I never “employ[ed] a barrage of defense techniques to question its authenticity.” I simply couldn’t have because you never advanced this text. And even now you don’t attribute the text – perhaps because you don’t want me to critically consider the actual evidence – if any.
I am aware this charge of finding corpses with hands tied behind their backs came up after the retreat of Russia forces from the Kharkov region. At the time I saw online video and photographic evidence of corpses being dug up in one of the cemeteries. To me the charges were probably false. For example, the graves were marked by Orthodox crosses and close inspection of the photos showed many had been interned long before the invasion (Dates were on the crosses).
One photo I saw of a corpse with tied hands looked false – the rope used was very clean, obviously new, despite the stains on the corpse.
It is simply a fact that the first casualty in war is truth (accompanied by reason). All sides will produce propaganda and there is plenty of scope for manufacturing false evidence. That is why an intelligent person should not accept anything without analysing the claim critically and sensibly. Yes, this is difficult. It is much easier to go with your biases and support anything which shows the enemy you hate to be horrible.
The problem here, of course, is irrational hatred – particularly of Russians. I think we should reject that and accept Russians are normal people with all the strengths and weaknesses one can expect. The current extreme Russophobia is simply racist. And the support we give to neo-Nazis in Ukraine astounds me after all I have learned about the last world war. I never expected whole populations to fall into that trap again.
You don’t attribute the information you use I don’t think I have seen it. But I have seen the Yale study used by ICC to issue arrest warrants against Putin and Ms Lvova-Belova for allegedly deporting children. Perhaps we could discuss that report and the actual cases.
Ken, let us not speak of things which lead to t
he further division of humanity. History will be its own judge. Our words are inconsequential. Let’s move on to further adventures!! 😊
by the way, to clear something up for you, this was what I had said with your response:
” . . . civilians, with hands tied behind their backs, being marched by the Russian military to that same address, 144 Yablunska Street.”
Ken: ” . . you never advanced this text. And even now you don’t attribute the text – perhaps because you don’t want me to critically consider the actual evidence – if any. . . . .You don’t attribute the information you use I don’t think I have seen it. ”
No mystery. There was no need to cite the source. It’s from the Frontline piece that I provided a link for, and you said you had watched.
Regarding the rest of your comment which begins, “One photo I saw of a corpse with tied hands looked false – the rope used was very clean, obviously new, despite the stains on the corpse,” I’m afraid I can’t comment on that. You didn’t attribute your source.
“. . perhaps because you don’t want me to critically consider the actual evidence – if any.” – to quote you.
Then you move on to your typical “Russophobia” bullshit victimization crap. . . . Doesn’t it all get boring? Bore, bore, bore.
Our words are meaningless in the larger historical picture. Maybe its time to move on.
David – come on! Your assertion “It’s from the Frontline piece that I provided a link for, and you said you had watched” is ridiculous. I said I had no idea of what Frontline report you were talking about, and I never watched your video (the link simply did not work).
No, I didn’t provide a link to the videos and photos I referred to. I don’t collect links to everything I watch.
In simple terms – I have not researched, in detail, the Bucha or Kharkiv situations and have not collected the documents relevant to them. You also don’t seem to quote from documents on them as you have not provided a link to them (perhaps you could find them from the Frontline documentary you refer to – simply referring to a documentary is not evidence). We are in exactly the same boat here – referring to something we have watched but not having the evidence at hand. I would be willing to discuss any relevant document – one problem with these subjects is censorship. People have been thrown off YouTube and Facebook for simply challenging the establishment narrative of Bucha.
I have researched the child “deportation” charges because this is what the ICC based its arrest warrants on. Given that importance of the ICC claims and not the claims you refer to (the ICC made nothing of them), I wondered if you were interested in discussing the details of the Yale study the ICC based its arrest warrants on.
David – referring to the Russophobia problem as “bullshit” is something I might expect from a racist. it’s a bit like referring to the apartheid stories in Sout Africa or in the USA as “bullshit” when they obviously weren’t.
And what do you think a Russian would make of your dismissal of the problems they face in travelling outside their countries, moving their cars over borders, having their long-term citizenship in one of the Baltic republics withdrawn, etc., etc.?
We all face this problem in the information/disinformation sphere. Information is simply rejected if it is in anyway connected to a Russian source but disinformation from outside Russia is uncritically accepted if it denounces Russia – evidence is never required. That is simply racist.
Your quote: “I said I had no idea of what Frontline report you were talking about, and I never watched your video (the link simply did not work).”
Ken | July 18, 2023 at 10:43 am |
The new link works – the original doesn’t.
——————————-
Your quote: ” . . you never advanced this text. And even now you don’t attribute the text – perhaps because you don’t want me to critically consider the actual evidence – if any.”
Your quote: “No, I didn’t provide a link to the videos and photos I referred to. I don’t collect links to everything I watch.”
Question: Are you even for real? You can’t be enjoying this. . .
And here we go with the “Racist” bullshit again. Ken, I’m not the one trying to justify a war in which 50,000-100,000 Russian soldiers have been killed. That would be you.
And we don’t know how many Russian soldiers have been killed. The Russian government which you constantly defend won’t release the real numbers. Is that what you’re defending? Censorship of the dead? There’s your free and open society lol
We know tens of thousands of Russians have been killed in this war; so many in fact that they’ve gone to prisons to recruit more soldiers. Forbes estimates about 270,000 killed and wounded Russians so far in Ukraine.
In 20 years in Afghanistan & Iraq, the U.S. lost 5000 soldiers – and that left a scar on our nation. I can’t imagine how horrible this war must be for the Russian people.
You’re the racist, Ken. You’re trying to justify an illegal invasion that has led to the deaths of many many tens of thousands of Russians. For all practical purposes, you’re the one who hates the Russian people, and you’re the one doing them real harm.
It’s getting to the point where almost everybody in Russia knows someone who has lost a family member to this war.
If it was up to me, not one more Russian soldier would die in Ukraine. That doesn’t make me a racist against the Russian people. It means I love the Russian people. I would like it if they would stop dying.
My family came from the Volga River region of Russia. I’m more Russian than you are.
You throw out claims of racist Russophobia, while justifying the slaughter of them. Maybe if you could get over your own hatred of the Russian people you could see the situation for what it is.
David, don’t stick with your obvious false allegation that I had watched your video – I simply haven’t. The original link did not work, you later provided an updated link but I have not had time to look at a 2 hr documentary. it is that simple.
I have, however, looked at the report which said to have justfied the only ICC warrant of war crimes that has yet been produced in this war (related to alleged child deportation). So I am ready to discuss that in detail. Are you up for that?
I linked to this very short video (did you watch it) which shows ha reprts and docujemntaries of war crimes can be distorted.
This an obvious problem when you is just so much disifnormation floating around and where very biased actors are invovled in producing reports and dopcumentaries. This disinformation feld is in fact recognised as very important in this war. The only solution is to approach each claim intelligently and crticially – and to use multiple sources. I keep labouring this point.
But I repeat, are you up to discussing the evidence around the only ICC arrest warrants issued for war crimes in this war? I am.
Well I dunno, Ken. I really have no interest in engaging in your straw-man argument about deported children.
But I can play that game too. Here’s a straw-man question of my own. . . . Do you really like the fact that the RF State censors how many of its sons are being killed in Ukraine? . . Is that something you like? Censorship of the dead?
“You’re the racist, Ken. You’re trying to justify an illegal invasion that has led to the deaths of many many tens of thousands of Russians. For all practical purposes, you’re the one who hates the Russian people, and you’re the one doing them real harm.”
I have often tried to explain the cause, the event’s leading up to the NATO/Russia war playing out in Ukraine. Is that what you mean by “justification?”
I initially described the Russian invasion of Ukraine as “illegal” in international law. This is because I found, like many others, that the actions taken against ethnic Russians in Ukraine since 2014 was something less than genocide (and note that some Russian sources fell back to calling the actions “genocide-like”). Subsequently I have become more and more horrified about those “genocide-like” actions so now see this argument better supported.
I added that the Russian leadership did justify their actions using legal arguments with recourse to the UN Charter, etc. Exactly the same as all superpowers (including most pointedly the USA) have done in their many invasions. So perhaps this war is similar to the US wars in Indochina, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc., to mention only a few. That raises the question – why the difference in the political response to this war? (I think some important answers can be made to that question which help to explain the causes of this particular war).
Incidentally, my attitude was similar to those of the expert academics Professor Jeffrey Sachs, Richard Sawka, Tarik Cyril Amar, Ivan Katchanovski, and I suspect many others (I have read, or listened to, these ones). These have all postulated that the Russian Federation still had diplomatic moves they could have made. Like them, though, I cannot describe what those moves would have been. Incidentally, those experts all argue along similar lines I use to the causes of the war and the responsibility of the US and neo-Nazis for this war.
If you wish to call me racist for not being blind to what happened in Europe after 1991, to the rise of ultra-nationalists in Ukraine after independence and to the often-declared ambitions the USA has expressed towards the Russian Federation then you will end up calling these experts on Russia, Ukraine, geopolitics, etc., racist as well.
But perhaps you would. One of the characteristics of the current ideological atmosphere is that anyone wishing to discuss the facts on cases like this gets accused of campaigning for Putin, etc, in derogatory ways. Simply a way of closing down an argument and I believe, in essence, a racist way.
David, I think it understandable that combatants will be something less than honest about their casualties.
In this current war the Ukrainians have been extremely secretive – and no wonder as most semi-objective sources describe these losses as horrendous. Many times greater than the Russian casualties (although this difference in inherent in the two different battle approaches).
The Russian Minister of Defense has made semi-regular announcements of Russian casualties. To be taken with a spoon of salt, of course. But, notably, the BBC made their own estimates of Russia deaths using burials, death notices, etc., and found the numbers were similar.
I know people like to discuss speculated numbers – I cannot see the point. But all the data I have seen show the Ukrainian casualties as far larger than the Russian ones.
The countries are different in size, of course, but Russia has had only one mobilization and, at last count I remember, the Ukrainians have had 12. Ukrainian bans external travel for men (easily solved with a bribe of course) – the Russians don’t. There have been street protests of soldier’s wives in Kiev because the cemeteries are too small – and the few photographs I have seen show large areas of recent military burials in Ukraine.
The Ukrainians released prisoners (and stupidly gave them arms) right at the start and use them in their military. The Russian did for a while – I understand that has now recently stopped. I think it is a stupid practice – but I also think that about prisons.
You have mentioned Russians reportedly knowing at least one person killed. (I would be interested in seeing that survey – was it from a reputable polling agency). The Ukrainians have polled this several times now. The most recent poll showed the number had shot up to 4 or more dead (from memory – I should hunt out the source – it was a Ukrainian paper). A big jump probably attributable to the recent failed counter offensive where the Ukrainian deaths were horrendous.
I think all deaths in wars are dreadful. I actually find myself grieving more for the Ukrainian situation. I believe the Russian Federation will win this war with NATO (provided we don’t slide into use of nuclear arms). They will grieve for their losses of course – but these will be far less than those suffered by Ukraine. The way this war is going, Ukraine may not exist as a country at the end but if it does it will have lost everything. No industry, huge debts. It will be a failed state with a lost generation of men.
Most of all – lost opportunities. If the correct paths had been taken in February 2014, December 2021 and March 2022 Ukraine could have survived. I just hope the real war criminals responsible for this are caught and prosecuted.
But a question for you. If you believe the story of deported children is a straw man argument, why do you think the ICC issued the arrest warrants?
Ken, I had asked you if you were ok with the Russian Federation censoring the number of its sons which had been killed in Ukraine. . . . That’s a Yes or No question. Are you ok with it?
You answered: “In this current war the Ukrainians have been extremely secretive –”
what·a·bout·ism
nounBRITISH
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.
The rest of your lengthy spin is irrelevant. You never answered the question. Are you, as a man, ok with the RF government hiding the number of its sons it has asked to die in this failed illegal invasion? Are you ok with the State hiding the number of deaths the Russian children have had to endure?
I’m just wondering, where are the people marching on the streets demanding peace, as they did during the Vietnam and Iraq wars?
Are the only people suggesting we aim for peace “crazy” people like Donald Trump and RFK Jr?
Is it now fashionable to want to nuke the entire planet?
David, your question lacks specificity -= this is why it invites the response “are you OK with the fact you regularly beat your wife? Yes or No!”
What about providing some specificity?
1: Is there a Russia law you are referring to (there may we be laws on printing speculative numbers for example)?
2: Are Mothers denied information on the deaths of their serving sons or daughters? Provide the evidence for this.
3: Are the numbers released by the Ministery of Defense censored – not published? Provide evidence for this.
If the Russian Federation hides the number of serving soldiers deaths in any of the ways indicated in my questions – no I am not OK with that. But you are not providing any specific instants – I am asked to accept a wild claim without anything to support it. And, no, a wild unsupported claim does not become true because it is reported in the media.
To deal with the possibilities I have numbered.
I have seen (I think) two reports of numbers given by the Minster of Defense (No 3) – yes, I urged taking salt with them. But that performance is far better than what we get from Ukraine of the US.
I have not seen any evidence of Mothers denied information (No 2)- but sure there could be delays and “missing in action” problems.
I fully believe there could be laws on speculative reporting and disinformation (number 1). Perhaps this is what you mean?
I am not OK with any censorship to the degree it occurs in Russia and especially in Ukraine (where disinformation is rife). But I am also not OK with the promotion of disinformation and fake figures which I am sure happens in this war. One just has to look at the wide difference in numbers presented by ideologically motivated propagandists in this war. Obviously, they can’t all be correct.
By the way, the Russian MOD provides number of battle losses of Ukrainian soldiers and vehicles (but not of their own). By themselves they are useless and lots of salt is involved. But over time they can indicate trends in the fighting. The Russian MOD claims these figures are obtained from the Ukrainian reports military commanders make every day.
David, you sink readily into the charge of “whataboutism” which makes your arguments ridiculous. You aren’t able to look at a proper picture.
You find it permissible to discuss the events in Crimea in February/March of 2014 but don’t find it permissible to discuss the coup in Kiev in February 2014.
You criticize the Crimean authorities for not including the 2013 Ukrainian constitution in the list of referendum choices in March 2014 – yet you ignore the fact that the coup leaders in Kiev had disposed of that constitution in one of their first acts – without a referendum (nothing has been put to referendums in Ukraine since February 2014 even though they were required by the Minsk agreements).
You find it permissible to make wild claims about Putin and his policies but deny the chance to talk about the tragedy of the 90s and the recovery of the Russian Federation under Putin’s presidency. This is why he gets such high support. Unless you understand that background you cannot understand why there are no credible liberal political parties in Russia (which I think is a tragic loss).
Your charges of wahtaboutism are simply being used to prevent a rational discussion and to hide the real context of today’s situations.
Andy, I do notice some peace marches in Germany and Poland. I think these will accelerate as conditions worsen in those countries.
But I am sad about the peace movement in general. I was an early peace activist (just got a freedom of information request back from the SIS and the newspaper clippings they sent (not much else) shows they opened a file on me while I was at high school because of my letters to the editor on peace issues and participation in a Hiroshima Day march!
They must have had files on a huge number of people.
But I recognized the introduction of irrationality into the peace movement from the late 70s on. Now that has degraded to woke activism and people only demonstrate about health measures and gender identification now. The judgment gene seems to have taken over.
So sad considering that we are much closer to a nuclear war than we were in the 80s.
Neighbouring countries are having refugees foisted upon them which is straining local economies, esp Poland.
You are right about activism in general, Ken Kudos too for being a “peace activist” back in the day
Corporations these days seem more concerned with their ESG scores than customers, hence Bud Light can commit commercial suicide at the expense of being woke.
Activism that is deemed acceptable is 100% aligned with corporate values: climate, pharma, gender, etc.
If you push back on e.g vaccine mandates then you get cancelled.
If you belong to Just Stop Oil and block traffic, the police turn a blind eye.
Similarly, if you punch a 70 year old woman in the face, because she is a “Terf”, that is somehow OK.
Somehow, we need to get back to some core values and encourage independent thinking. Seeking peace in Ukraine is now an “outside view”, which as you say Ken is a worry when we face potential nuclear conflict.
Ken, they got you, man. Maybe put something into diet other than right wing propaganda.
Your quote: “But I recognized the introduction of irrationality into the peace movement from the late 70s on. Now that has degraded to woke activism . . . ”
Don’t worry. That’s not quite as upside-down as Marjorie Taylor Green criticizing president Biden for spending money on Education and Infrastructure, which he turned around and used as a political ad lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTi8V4PWHK4
David, I don’t know where you got my “right wing propaganda” diet from. And, anyway, I have long recognised that the terms “left” and “right” are meaningless these days.
I don’t know about the term “woke” – I tend to stick by older descriptions. I may show my age but one of books that influenced me most amongst Lenin’s writings was “Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder.” (Showing my “left-wing” credentials there).
Sure, Lenin was describing bigger problemns (trying to end the war with Poland so as to save the Russian rebvolution) but I tbink “Infantile Disorder” more adequaltely describes the situation today than a slang tem no one seems to understand.
But that infantilke disorder seems to have penetrated to quite high levels. Into academia, into scientific organisations, and of course the protest movement in a wide variety of flavours.
Mind you the level of approved narrative these people have imposed on us is not new. We have seesn it all before. I suspect, though, the frantic impostion of narrative we see today initated in the US with Clinton’s response to her electoral defeat.
Open Parachute 
Your criticism of Youtube channels, biased one way or the other, are a sad straw man. The fact is that Russia is losing this war. The entire world expected this war to be over within a month of Russia’s illegal and immoral invasion. Instead, the world discovered how utterly incompetent the Russian military really is. The emperor no longer has any clothes. This invasion has been a complete failure for Russia.
While you and other RF apologists whine about the economic war that NATO has waged against Russia, you fail to consider that your real problem is with Vladimir Putin. With his own incompetent decisions, he has managed to make NATO stronger and more united than it has ever been. If your problem is with NATO, your real problem is with Putin and superpower ability to assist Joe Biden in his efforts to strengthen NATO.
Thanks to Putin and his bungling failures, Norway & Sweden, two countries which would never have thought to join NATO, have moved to join. NATO thanks you and your dim wittedness, Vladimir.
Now Blinken, Yellin and Kerry are carrying on dialogue with China and a small opening has been created for an improvement of U.S./China relations. Narenda Modi has visited Biden in Washington. . . . Much like Trump has united the Democrats, Putin with his is managing to unite the world. . . . Not to worry, Vladimir, al Assad still likes you.
Yes, Russia is losing . . let me correct that; Russia has already lost this war. And Boris Johnson hammered that fact in when, on Ukraine’s Independence Day, he freely walked the streets of Kyiv months after the world had expected it to be under the control of the Russian Federation. And what normal thinking people clearly witnessed at that moment was the complete ineptitude of the Russian military. . . . Hell, ten months after the world thought Volodymir Zelenskyy would have been dead, he helped feeble 80 year old Joe Biden hobble through a free and independent city so they could laugh at Putin together in front of the world.
But by all means Tokyo Rose, please continue to try to distract and confuse with inconsequential issues, like biased reporting, which occur in every war. You’ve really got your teeth into a Breaking News story there lol.
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And here is another such YouTube channel that has just become active on the war in Ukraine.
https://youtu.be/EmOSc3Lo-zo It’s all over in Kremlin! Russian Generals have Officially Joins the Coup! Civil war begins!
Active for only 2 days Emine’s Easy Recipes@ussecretagenda was previously (for over a year) a Turkish-Language food channel. Before that it was an English-language food channel. It currently has 169 thousand subscribers!
What is it with Turkish food and sewing channels? Have they consciously changed content, or have they been taken over?
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David, it is a pity you did not engage with the content of my post which was how YouTube Channels appear to be taken over and used for promulgation of extremely naïve and incorrect war coverage – apparently composed by something like ChatGPT and read by machines.
As I said in my summary:
But you appear to want to discuss other things.
1: The war. You assert “The entire world expected this war to be over within a month.” Really? I certainly didn’t. I looked at the declared Russian aims of the wars (at the time) and realised this would take a lot of effort and time.
While the initial negotiations did get close to an agreement on military sizes, foreign troops and neutrality I believed, like many people, denazification would be a longer-term project. This would take a lot more than simply making various organisations illegal.
Anyway, it became obvious that NATO would not allow the agreement to materialise and that it has longer term aims of regime change in Moscow and even the dispersal of the Russian Federation.
2: Who has lost? You believe that Russia is losing this war, even lost this war, which seems to be the messages promoted by the YouTube channels I discussed in my post.
Are you prepared to put money on that? Sure, Ukraine itself lost the war given that it lost most of the military men and equipment it had at the start. But the war has matured into a grand war between the Russian Federation and NATO. In effect, a war between the Russian Federation and the USA.
I wouldn’t put money on who the victor will be – given that we are close to nuclear eradication as a species. But I do note that the USA has lost most wars it has engaged in. I have memories of the USA war in Indochina. And the recent long war in Afghanistan is embarrassing for the USA.
Another factor to consider is the beliefs driving NATO and the USA. The economic war was lost because it was based on false beliefs about the Russian economy. I believe from the US and NATO coverage that the USA has similarly false beliefs about the military capacity of the Russian Federation.
That is a problem with believing one’s own propaganda. You end up being unprepared for the real consequences.
3: Kiev and NATO. You seem to be obsessed with these subjects.
Until now, the occupation of Kiev has never been declared as an aim of the Russian military actions. Yes, the initial declared aims were limited, and they have surely changed. But Kiev has yet to be mentioned. Hell, Kharkov and Odessa have not been formally mentioned but most people believe they will eventual become Russian again.
As for NATO they were mentioned in the important European Security Treaty proposals of December 2021. Yes, inclusion of Finland and Sweden goes against those proposals, but Norway membership doesn’t. Norway was a founding member of NATO in 1949 and the draft treaty appears to accept NATO members that had joined “as of 27 May 1997.”
Sweden and Finland membership doesn’t appear to provide much additional cause for concern given their geopolitical role before the war. But Membership of Ukraine and Georgia did. And Ukraine has been an informal member of NATO since the coup in Kiev in 2014.
The current thinking of the Russian leadership is not public, but it appears to me that given this war is now between NATO and the Russian Federation the Russian leadership will want formation of a European Security structure similar to that suggested in their draft proposals. And I suspect the removal of the dangerous missile sites from Poland and Romania, even their secession from NATO. The future borders of Ukraine are currently a matter of speculation given the territorial interests of Poland, Hungary, and Romania, as well as those of the Russian Federation.
4: Zelensky’s death. Yes, that is on the cards, but the gossip is that he will be killed by Ukrainian political and miliary elements – not by Russian agents.
Zelensky reminds me very much of the South Vietnamese leader Diem who was assassinated by his own people and the USA. Zelensky has made many enemies, including those who recognise he is more of a clown than a statesman. He will be lucky to escape to one of the mansions he has bought with the corrupt siphoning of money from aid packages.
Most political parties have been banned, the media has been trimmed to a few progovernment outlets, political leaders have been imprisoned, many politicians have been killed and, unsurprisingly, elections have also been banned. I would say this situation provides plenty of reasons for Zelensky’s imprisonment, exile, or murder.
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It appears that by your non-responsive response, you concede that Putin bungled this entire crusade, strengthened NATO, and failed in every objective he attempted.
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Ken says, “David, it is a pity you did not engage with the content of my post”
The content of your post? Misinformation occurs in war. Some is accurate, some is not. There is bias on both sides. That about sums it up doesn’t it? The content of your post isn’t worth engaging.
Your quote: “1: The war. You assert “The entire world expected this war to be over within a month.” Really? I certainly didn’t. ”
Response: Really. Please provide a link from early 2022 in which you said this war would take at over a year. You certainly aren’t shy about expressing your views on this platform. If you believed that, you certainly would have said it. Show me where you predicted more than a year long war in Ukraine. Failure to do so will be taken as an admission that you are lying.
Your quote: “While the initial negotiations did get close to an agreement on military sizes, foreign troops and neutrality I believed, like many people, denazification would be a longer-term project. ”
Response: Why are you obsessed with the “denazification” in other countries when New Zealand certainly has it’s share of this problem? Certainly the Christchurch massacre must ring a bell. And yet the majority of your obsession with Nazis is in a country where you don’t live. You realize that, right? Do you see a problem with the regurgitation of propaganda that is spoon-fed to your brain, and how normal people view it?
Your quote: “You believe that Russia is losing this war, even lost this war, . . ”
Response: Yep. Surely one of Putin’s objectives has been to weaken NATO. Did he succeed? If he didn’t succeed, he failed. . Surely one of his objectives must have been to make the Russian people proud to be Russian and to make their lives better? Did he succeed? Nope. 50,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in his disaster. 50,000 Russian soldiers dead and 50,000 Russian families mourning their loss. Did he make Russian lives better? He failed miserably. Your inability to acknowledge that speaks volumes about your mental condition.
Your quote: “Are you prepared to put money on that?”
Response: Bet on a war that has taken 50,000 Russians? You complain about Nazis in other countries, and you want to bet money on wholesale slaughter and war crimes? . . I question who the real Nazi is here. . . The Romans used to make bets about how long a crucifixion would take. No doubt Nazis used to make bets about who would last how long in labor camps. Do you want to put money on how many children will be burned alive in the next war crime that Russia commits in Ukraine? . . . Clean up your own act before you start preaching about alleged Nazis in countries that have nothing to do with you. . . I mean, really, you’re kind of sick to even suggest that.
Your quote: “But the war has matured into a grand war between the Russian Federation and NATO.”
Response: And Putin failed there too. He only managed to make NATO stronger and more united with countries waiting in line to join.
Your quote: “But I do note that the USA has lost most wars it has engaged in. . . . ”
Response: Irrelevant, as usual. Your reliance of logical fallacies betrays your lack of critical thinking skills.
Your quote: “And the recent long war in Afghanistan is embarrassing for the USA.”
Response: Wrong again. The original objective in the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was to capture or kill Osama bin Laden who was hosted by Mulla Omar and the Taliban. That objective was met under President Obama. The objective was met, therefore the war was won and the U.S. withdrew, although the withdrawal was several years later. Nevertheless, the war was won under President Obama.
Your quote: “I believe from the US and NATO coverage that the USA has similarly false beliefs about the military capacity of the Russian Federation.”
Response: Nobody has any false beliefs about the incompetence of the Russian Federation. Remember? The emperor has no clothes. Thanks to their bungling, Ukraine is becoming a military superpower in the region, NATO is stronger, and 50,000 Russian soldiers are dead. And the Russian people are divided on this war. . . Ukraine shot down one of Putin’s glorious, Hypersonic missiles, that he actually bragged about, with a Patriot missile. The emperor has no clothes. Russian military technology is a joke.
One source claims that 14 Russian generals have been killed since Putin’s bungled invasion began. Russia admits to 5. You don’t want to be a Russian general. . . I mean, you really can’t be serious with your juvenile cheerleading for the RF.
And your speculation about the death of the Ukrainian president is right on par with your desire to place a wager on the unnecessary deaths of innocent civilians, much like the Romans and Nazis before you. You’re on the wrong side of history, champ.
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David, your demand – “Show me where you predicted more than a year long war in Ukraine. Failure to do so will be taken as an admission that you are lying”
Seriously!! I am lying because I never made any predictions about this war? Seriously? Show me where you made any predictions. That is simply childish.
As for denazification – you seem to miss the message. It was not me that that made any demands on this – it was the Russian Federation in is initial statement about their reasons to invade at that time, February 2022. That aim had nothing to do with me, or with New Zealand and the terrorist attack in Christchurch.
You ask if this war has weakened NATO? We shall see from the results. It’s easy to discuss the attrition of NATO armaments that is occurring, but the end result is the proof of the pudding. As I have said – we may not even get there, given the nuclear weapons held by the Russian Federation and the USA.
You ask of Putin “Did he make Russian lives better?“ Well, I think the reason for his support by the people is that he has made their life a hell of a lot better than the 90s which the USA wants Russia to return to. A period where the demographic consequences were as bad as the famines of the 30s. No doubt about that. As for the current quality of life and attitudes in Russia perhaps you should check it out for yourself. There seems to be no shortages. The economy seems to be going well for people. And the inevitable result of war is patriotism which seems to be high in Russia. Putin’s popularity has reached record heights – although, of course, that won’t be reflected as strongly in the upcoming presidential elections. Just my observation from listening to people in Russia at the moment.
The problem about war and the attitude of fans of one side or the other, is that people believe their own biases, confirmation bias is rife, and people look at the trees instead of the wood. It is the position with the wood that will determine the outcome. As I said the USA and its allies completely misjudged the result of their economic war because they believed their own propaganda and ignored reality. The ignored the wood. I think the same has happened regarding the military outcome, although the failure of the much-proclaimed Ukrainian counterattack seems to be encouraging some western commentators to reverse their previous convictions.
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First of all, a correction on my part. I mistakenly cited Norway as country moving to join NATO. You were right to correct me. Obviously I meant Finland as you rightly pointed out.
Your quote: “Seriously!! I am lying because I never made any predictions about this war? Seriously? Show me where you made any predictions. That is simply childish.”
Response: Are you for real? I’m being childish? First of all, I admit I was wrong about the length of the Ukraine war. I had no idea how incompetent the Russian military was. Nobody had any idea what a bungling idiot Putin really is. I thought Putin was cunning and savvy. I never believed it would have lasted more than a month. . . . . But you say you did.
Now, almost a year and a half after Putin’s failed crusade began, you say: “You assert “The entire world expected this war to be over within a month.” Really? I certainly didn’t. ”
You have a platform in which you spend a significant amount of time discussing this war. I don’t.
So where did you say it? You literally spend hours on this site regurgitating propaganda about this war that has been spoon-fed into your brain, and now you’re trying to tell us that you ‘forgot to mention’ how long you believed this war would last? Wouldn’t that have seemed kind of significant at the time, especially when everybody else, except you, thought it would take less than a month?
You’re saying you were the lone reed who knew something nobody else would have believed, and you expect people to believe that it wasn’t significant enough for you to mention.
The logical conclusion here is that you’re lying. Period.
Your quote: “As for denazification – you seem to miss the message. It was not me that that made any demands on this – it was the Russian Federation in is initial statement about their reasons to invade at that time, . . ”
Response: Thank you. You’ve just proven the point I’ve been making about your intellectual laziness which is manifested by your regurgitation of RF propaganda. Point made.
Your next paragraph deserves no response. Speculation is irrelevant . . unless of course you want to make a wager about the end of humanity the way you wished to bet on the wholesale slaughter and war crimes against innocent civilians which include the widespread murders of children.
Your quote: “You ask of Putin “Did he make Russian lives better?” . . . As for the current quality of life and attitudes in Russia perhaps you should check it out for yourself.”
Response: Ok, I will.
I said that the country, Russia, is divided because of this war. 50,000 Russian soldiers have already been killed in Ukraine. According to Forbes, as many as 270,000 Russian soldiers killed and wounded. It is fair to estimate that each of those soldiers came from a family averaging 4 people. This brings the number to over a million Russian citizens who have been profoundly impacted in a negative way by this war because of the death or mutilation of a family member.
According to Wikipedia: “Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022, anti-war demonstrations and protests broke out across Russia. As well as the demonstrations, a number of petitions and open letters have been penned in opposition to the war, and a number of public figures, both cultural and political, have released statements against the war.
“The protests have been met with widespread repression by the Russian authorities. According to OVD-Info, at least 14,906 people were detained from 24 February to 13 March.[112][113] Human rights organisations and reporters have raised concerns of police brutality . . . The government has also moved to crack down on other forms of opposition to the war, including introducing widespread censorship measures. Other individuals who signed anti-war petitions have faced reprisals.[114][115] After Putin announced a partial mobilization of Russia’s military reserves on 21 September, over 2,000 people were detained in mass street protests in the following days.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-war_protests_in_Russia_(2022%E2%80%93present)
And the article goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on to cite specific protests and RF crackdowns, police brutality, and censorship by the government.
And you’re seriously going to maintain that life is good in Russia and the Russian people are happy? With over a million people profoundly impacted by the death or mutilation of a who was family member sent to Ukraine, you say the Russian people are happy.
In the face of objective reality, you come off as either a blatant liar, or a sad case who has become dangerously deluded from the unfortunate brainwashing – which you did to yourself.
To deny that Vladimir Putin’s illegal (and even you have conceded the illegality of it), immoral, invasion which history will view as the grisly holocaust that it is . . to deny that it has been a disaster for Both Sides, . . . and to deny that the world would have been in a better place without Vladimir Putin and his botched, bungled attempted land-grab, is to fly in the face of reality. . . Maybe it’s time for an intervention, Ken.
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I thought I include this documentary in response to your assertion that the people of Russia are happy and patriotic. I doubt you’ll watch it because of what they call “cognitive dissonance.” In the unlikely chance that you will watch it, here it is, even though it would never have been shown on InfoWars
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Hi Ken. . . please indulge me
One more really quick question. . . And I promise, I haven’t looked, so I don’t know what the answer is, but I’d love to know, .
And this question came to me after watching the Frontline documentary, “Putin’s War At Home,” which you probably haven’t watched, because, . . . ya know . . . . .
But I hope you did ❤️
So here it is. I don’t know what the answer is, so you tell me.
Exactly how many human beings in the world think they can find a better life in Russia and are therefore trying to sneak in? What kind of an illegal immigrant problem does Russia have? How many normal people want to get into Russia to find a better life?
In light of whatever answer you come up with, please explain to me how you believe Putin has made the lives of average Russian citizens . . . more fulfilled?
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David, you say – “You have a platform in which you spend a significant amount of time discussing this war. I don’t.”
Come on, that is simply not true. Quite apart from the fact that blogs are long past their use by date (and I was deplatformed by SciBlogs which itself has since gone out of existence as no longer being a useful medium) surely you must have noticed I no longer spend much time blogging about anything. Basically because of advanced age, and a debilitating stroke (it scarred the language area of my brain) I am simply unable to blog much. Not for want of trying – but it has simply been impossible for me to finish the many articles I have started.
As for making predictions – a learned quickly the stupidity of that. I was someone who argued in February 2022 that Russian military exercises were not evidence of a pending invasion. Partly because these were annual events (both the exercises and predictions of invasions). But also, because I believed that there were still some diplomatic possibilities to prevent war (I could not now describe to you what they were so perhaps it was just my hope). I was deluded in much the same way as Zelensky and various political commentators and should have paid more attention to real Russian experts – people like the Late Stephen Cohen.
So, I learned not to make predictions. In fact, on reflection, I have been wrong about all my hopes and hopeful prediction regarding Ukraine ever since the 2013/2014 Maidan demonstrations. Every time. I held out hope for the EU brokered agreement in February 2014. I held out hope for the Minsk Agreements. I held out hope for the December 20121 Russian initiatives to solve the European Security crisis. Wrong every time. Hopefully I have learned from my mistakes (although it is a pity to give up hope that nations cand solve their ethnic differences and countries can honestly sign agreements.
Hope is not a sufficient basis for correct prediction. Neither is bias or belief in one’s’ own propaganda. That is why NATO decisively lost the economic war against Russia they launched.
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David. This comment of yours shows you have crudely “misunderstood” my point about Putin’s support and have reverted to the old arguments as a diversion.
What I actually said about Putin’s support – and this the argument you should address – is this:
Have a look at the condition of Russia during the 90s under the alcoholic president Boris Yeltsin. Widespread corruption. A criminal government in the pay of the oligarchs who had robbed the people of their assets – the biggest robbery in history. Gang warfare with heavy military weapons in the streets of cities (Putin admits when he moved to Moscow he slept with a pistol under his pillow). Government positions were determined by oligarchs like Berezovsky (who incidentally was partly responsible for Putin’s elevation – poetic justice).
Child prostitutes operating in the streets of cities. Pensioners denied the pensions. Scientists and other intellectuals working unpaid. Plummeting of the life expectancy. Studies show the demographic effects of the 90s were similar to that of the famines in the 30s.
And these “liberal, democratic” reforms of the 90s were carried out with the assistance of the US, who incidentally blatantly helped Yeltsin to win the 1996 elections (his popularity had plummeted to about 5% whereas the Communist candidate was in the 30s. Expectations were that the election would be cancelled until the US came along with their assistance).
Yes, of course, Russia was also being stripped on their natural resources. The Russians came to see that period as an example of colonialism.
The new president fought against these problems. He limited the power of the oligarchs, many of whom fled overseas. He saved national ownership of the natural resources. And gradually worked to overcome the economic and social situation of the 90s.
One could analyse more what Putin has and hasn’t done. But there is no doubt he had the people’s support. By this I mean polling about whether he is doing a good job. This is different to election results (if I was Russian, I probably would not vote for Putin, but I would say he is doing a good job if I was polled).
In recent years Putin’s popularity has been above 60%. Recently it was about 80% (the effect of patriotism?) but shot up to 90% after the defeat of Prigozhin’s mutiny. You might like to reject these figures to confirm your own bias, but the Levada polling group is independent of the government, and in fact often criticised by the government with some politicians wanting to register it as a foreign agent. Serious commenters do accept Levada’s figures.
I repeat, the figures are not electoral figures and while Putin will no doubt win the next election if he stands (and if it takes place – difficult to predict the future) his electoral results would be a lot lower.
A politician’s popularity is not determined by how many people leave or come to a country, or even by limited protests over specific policies. It is determined by what the politician does to make the life of people better and to overcome the huge injustices of the past.
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David, let me correct your claim that “even” I have conceded the illegality of” the Russian invasion. I said that as my initial response. I rejected the very legalistic justification of the war as the standard hypocritical justifications all counties (and particularly the US) have made when they invade other countries.
But I have since added that as I learned more about what was happening in Donbass, the magnitude of the NATO arming of the Ukrainian armed forces (including the neo-Nazi National battalions) after the 2014 coup, and the intentions of NATO governments with respect to the Russian Federation (regime change, breakup of the country) I have come to be more accepting of the stated legal justifications.
I have only to imagine what would happen to the citizens of the Donbass and of Crimea if the current Ukrainian government won this war. I have only to look at what has happened to people in the areas which the Russian army withdrew from in the Kharkov and Kherson areas.
We should remember the Wolyn massacre of over a hundred thousand Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Russians by the Ukrainian nationalists 8o years ago yesterday. In this video I saw this morning a Polish woman describes the massacre and discusses some of the current results. Well worth watching.
Remember, the current regime in Kiev ignores that massacre but erects statues to the leaders of the nationalist organizations responsible and names streets after them – all the while removing statues to soldiers who fought the Nazis.
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OK, only one voice and it is a rant. But this Russian Soldier speaks the truth.
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Apparently this video can’t be shown here either.
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Lols.
David seems to believe this is Putin’s war. That Putin started it and is failing in his grand objectives.
On one level I can agree, this war will slowly bleed Russia dry and probably strengthen NATO in the longer term.
But, it’s not a matter of it being a failure of some grand aggressive strategy of Putin’s. It’s a matter of the success of USA’s grand strategy which involved NATO expansion and the reduction of Russia’s power economic and geopolitical power. China will be next and USA is already chest thumping over that. In USA’s eyes, USA has to top dog, the only dog, nothing less will do for the world’s most militarily violent nation since WW2.
Ukraine is USA’s war, Putin was a foolish dupe to take the bait and walk into it . And baited he certainly was.
And yes Ken, MSM is completely in thrall to US propaganda and bad players. Good information and truth has always been the first casualty of conflict, on both sides.
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Richard says, “David seems to believe this is Putin’s war. . .”
Yes, Richard, David believes this is Putin’s war. That’s because David believes his own eyes. Take 2 minutes and watch this exchange, which occurred three days before Putin’s illegal war began. Here we see Putin pushing one of his security advisors to say exactly what he wants to hear. There’s no freedom of thought with this asshole. And yes, Richard, Putin WILL be judged by history as one of its great assholes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-u8EoWcI
Any comments, Richard? Or are you going to subscribe to the time-honored mantra, “Why should I believe my lying eyes when I can believe the propaganda that makes me feel good?” btw, Richard, did they show this clip on RT or whatever RF propaganda you stuff into your brain?
Now I’m not a betting man, but I would be willing to put 50 bucks on a wager that this guy is dead now.
Just as Iraq was Bush’s war, Ukraine is Putin’s war. If you want to blame the U.S. for Putin forcing his counsel to go along with it, amassing troops on the Ukraine border and telling the world he had no intention of invading . . . and then invading, go right ahead. Far be it from me to quash you delusions.
As for you, Ken, they call this a straw man argument: “Have a look at the condition of Russia during the 90s under the alcoholic president Boris Yeltsin. ”
Ok . . . I’ll do what you just did, Ken. (As a Trump apologist would say) “Life in the United States under Donald Trump, with the pandemic, with the divisions, with cities burning, with the culture wars, with the white nationalism, with the world laughing at our president, . . . all that was also a hell of a lot better than it was during the Civil War.
I never asked you to compare current conditions in Russia to some horrible point in the past of your choosing so you could tell me how great things are now. I asked you, ‘are people in Russia happy and do they have fulfilled lives?’
And one metric of this can certainly be seen by how many people outside the country are trying to become Russian citizens. Because, why else would you want to move to another country unless you believed your life would be better there? . . I don’t see that Russia has a big immigration problem.
But sure, let’s dwell on a massacre 80 years ago and blame all our sins on that. . . . Let’s look at living conditions from more than 20 years ago, pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves how great things are now . . . all while murdering children in another country and sending our young men to be slaughtered – to such an extent that over 1,000,000 of our citizens have at least one family member who has died or been wounded in Ukraine.
Your quote: “As for the current quality of life and attitudes in Russia perhaps you should check it out for yourself. There seems to be no shortages. The economy seems to be going well for people. And the inevitable result of war is patriotism which seems to be high in Russia.”
Bullshit
I noticed you had nothing to say about Putin’s sweeping censorship, or the lack of freedom of speech which is enforced by crushing police brutality and unreasonable prison sentences for expressing views against the war, or the fact that more than a million Russian citizens have at least one family member who has been killed or wounded in Ukraine. . . . Yeah. Normal people would want to live there. But hey, they don’t have a border problem do they.
To be fair, I had some of same complaints during the Iraq war. During the Bush Administration, the press was not allowed to photograph coffins from Iraq arriving at Dover Air Force Base. Right wing media tried to shame and humiliate anybody who spoke up against the Iraq war, including Cindy Sheehan, the mother of a fallen soldier. Our country behaved shamefully. . . . . But, to our credit, nobody ever got a 10 year prison sentence for putting a price sticker on merchandise in a store saying that inflation is as bad now as it was in the 1990s.
I had asked you how many people outside Russia are trying to get into Russia because they believe their lives would be happier and more fulfilled there.
By your straw-man skirting of the question, I assume the answer is about zero. Instead, you answered this way:
Ken: “A politician’s popularity is not determined by how many people leave or come to a country, or even by limited protests over specific policies. It is determined by what the politician does to make the life of people better and to overcome the huge injustices of the past.” . . . . . . . . (Injustices of the past? That’s your justification for a barrage of war crimes committed during an illegal invasion, wholesale murder of children, and the entire world on edge because of a potential nuclear holocaust? – All because of injustices of the past?)
By “limited protests over specific policies,” you obviously mean mass, widespread protests against the policy of their fellow Russians and family members being sent into a meat grinder, crushing censorship, lack of freedom of speech, police brutality, and outrageous prison sentences for the mildest of offences.
Ok. Whatever you say. It’s kind of like when I tell my wife, “I don’t watch porn,” and what I really mean is, . . “I don’t watch porn being filmed, at the studio, in person, when other people are around.” Six of one, half dozen of the other. Potato Tomato. . . . 😵💫
On another note, good luck to you, Ken. I’m sorry to hear about your health. You’re my favorite Putin cheerleader.
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One more thing, Ken . . .
I would much more enjoy discussing something less disagreeable with you.
Tell you what, get up to speed on Skinwalker Ranch because I would love to pick your brain and get your thoughts about that.
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Richard, I think talk of “Putin’s war” is just childish (as are most promoted ideas with the word ”Putin” included).
It makes much more sense to describe it as USA’s war. Especially as US strategic thinkers have seen this war as probably inevitable. For some time, they have seen Europe/Eurasia as a future rival threat to their own hegemony. This was reflected in the old cold war as the rivalry of the two superpowers – the USA and the USSR.
During the Second World War these two blocks struggled for position, both recognising they were to compete after the war. There were those in the USA who during the war promoted the idea of striking the USSR at the end of the war when it was weak to remove that threat. Of course, the collapse of the USSR was a godsend to these people who saw this catastrophe as a victory.
Their dream had come true – in fact, the victory was double as the USSR withdrew from Eastern Europe shortly before its own untimely collapse. The USSR had maintained those countries and the GDR as a protective blanket to guarantee their own security. While that was oppressive this was not necessary. Austria chose neutrality and Soviet troops withdrew from there. The same thing could have happened in in Germany if the west had agreed to Soviet ideas of a neutral, disarmed, Germany.
While Gorbachev’s ideas for withdrawal from Europe appeared great on humanitarian grounds it should have happened in an organised way by means of proper negotiation with NATO and a rigid treaty (perhaps describing the simultaneous dissolution of NATA as well as the Warsaw pact). Gorbachev did get promises from US negotiators that NATO would not move one inch east of the then current positions. The promises proved worthless as have many future agreements (eg the Minsk agreements).
The breakup of the USSR was similarly badly handled. I suspect the unfortunate coup attempt against Gorbachev was a huge factor as previous to that there had been proposals for a weaker union which had got support from the populations of the major republics in a referendum. The coup attempt, and Yeltsin’s desire for Russian independent (perhaps resulting from his personal competition with Gorbachev) torpedoed the idea.
The disorganised collapse, with the resulting looting of the country’s natural resources and people’s property left a single superpower standing. The superpower, the USA participated in the looting and the political and economic changes which lead to the establishment of a corrupt, criminal state with a terrorised and impoverished population. The 90s were a tragedy for Russia and no one wants to go back there. This is why liberals receive so little electoral support today (which is perhaps a tragedy).
So, for a period we were faced with a unipolar world. The USA could dictate to other countries about how they should organise their politics and economics. Even to what values their societies shouydl have. Today that period is looked on with resentment by most of the world. Today people worldwide want a multipolar world where a country’s independence is respected. I wrote about this in The west vs the rest – the world is changing
But since 2000 and the period of Putin’s presidency (except for 2008-2012) Russia has recovered from the tragedy of the 90s. It has become a lot stronger and can exert its influence on the world (but, unfortunately, not on the USA it turned out). It became a superpower and therefore a threat to US hegemony. At the same time, China has also become a lot stronger, politically, economically, and militarily. So, we have three superpowers in the world. (I should note that in contrast Ukraine remained, more or less, in the 90s state with a corrupt, criminal, political system run in the interest of the oligarchs)
Ideally, we should have agreement on a multilateral world where no superpower seeks hegemony and where there is respect for the interests of others. The US is refusing to accept this. For a long time, they saw Ukraine as a way they could undermine Russia’s power. US missiles in Ukraine would provide a dangerous threat. But the revival of nationalism meant that the US could use the neo-Nazi elements in Ukraine to develop their anti-Russian hatred and undermine Russia’s power.
On independence Ukraine described itself as neutral. Its population largely accepted that. While elements promoted membership of NATO this was always rejected in any polling. Ukraine could have become a prosperous and peaceful country, to some extent bridging east and west and profiting from trade. Its neutrality would have helped ensure peace in Europe.
But that was not allowed to happen. And the USA is largely to blame. That is why intelligent watchers of the region have for many years been predicting a war.
War was inevitable. It is childish to blame it on one person. Especially Putin who had in many ways tried hard to develop a sensible European security framework and peace in Ukraine with guaranteed borders. I believe he was dragged into this war reluctantly.
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Ken, thank you for the history lesson.
You have learned nothing here.
Sad 😢
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Ken, thanks for your long comment. That is actually pretty good, despite David’s cynical response.
Thank you
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My long comment was as a reply to Richard’s comment. I will respond to your recent comment was I get time.
Probably another long comment coming up – but that’s one of the results of my stroke. I can’t be precise.
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Firstly, a general comment David, can we agree that in any discussion here that the partner be respectful. That we avoid name-calling and labelling (which, anyway, only are excuse for lack of argument).
I realise many people have an obsession with Putin. This may be understandable because of the intense demonisation of him, and his country, we have been exposed to. I believe some people, who should know better, resort to the “Putin cheerleader,” “Putin apologist,” etc., type of arguments as an unconscious response to their realisation that Putin has actually been very successful as a politician (far outshining the ones we have in our countries) and wish to avoid any discussion of home.
But my concern is far wider than this blog. We have been exposed to a high level of censorship since this war started – and the most effective censorship is to shootdown anyone who dares to present a view contrary to the official narrative. Such people have been accused of being apologists for Putin, or worse, and in some countries have actually faced legal actions. Some have been sanctioned, bank accounts seized, etc.
So please don’t indulge in that practice here – perhaps spend some time imagining what sort of labels I could use against use as a way of avoiding discussion. Perhaps a Biden cheerleader, or a Kamala cheerleader. One shudders to think how low I could go.
I don’t think it achieves anything positive to indulge in this sort of abuse.
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Sure Ken. I apologize for demonizing the man who has given over one million of his fellow Russians at least one dead or wounded family member. My bad.
Seriously, do you hate the Russian people?
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Don’t flatter yourself, David. You didn’t demonise Putin. You simply uncritically absorbed the narrative imposed on you. Which shows a lack of independent thought.
Meanwhile the country Putin presides over (and have far more experience of the man) don’t accept that narrative. Currently he has 90% support for his work.
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No comment on the Frontline piece? No comment on Putin’s sweeping censorship. police brutality, and outrageous prison sentences when dissent occurs? No comment on the lack of freedom of speech? No comment on the 270,000 killed or wounded Russian soldiers from this war?
Please explain how those 90% of Russians who support President Putin can possibly have an informed opinion when the State controls the narrative in their country. Please explain why very few people living outside the country, who aren’t manipulated by state-controlled media, actually want to live inside Russia.
I realize it is uncomfortable for you to face these questions. It’s called cognitive dissonance. Try to get over it and look at the situation honestly. . . As it is, right now, if your mind was a parachute you would plummet to your death.
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I took the liberty of looking up some stats and other facts . . . which, as it turns out, don’t exactly line up with with your narrative of a 90% approval rating for President Putin among the Russian people:
“Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine that started in late February 2022, more than 300,000 Russian citizens and residents are estimated to have left Russia by mid-March 2022, at least 500,000 by the end of August 2022, and an additional 400,000 by early October, for a total of approximately 900,000. This number includes economic migrants, conscientious objectors, and some political refugees.”
“Political refugees?” Emigrating from Russia where 90% of the people support its president? . . Why would people living in a free and open society, where diversity of thought is openly encouraged, where there are no reprisals for freedom of speech, consider themselves “political refugees?”
“Those who have fled tend to be young and well-educated professionals, leading some economists to suggest that the Russian brain drain is worsening. More than 50,000 Russian information technology specialists have left Russia.”
You may not realize this, but polls and referendums with unusually high percentages one way or the other can sometimes be suspect. For example, in 1938, Austria was annexed by Germany after a referendum in Austria with a result of 99.7% of Austrians voting in favor of German annexation of Austria. . . . Do you really believe that number was an accurate reflection of Austrian thought in 1938?
For example, in 2014 the Crimean Status Referendum took place with a result of 97% of the voters favoring Russian annexation of the peninsula. . . . Do you really believe that number was an accurate reflection of Crimean thought in 2014? . . . . Well, of course you do.
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One more thing, Ken, in response to your comment. You’re asking me to be polite and respectful to someone who supports the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians, the burning alive of babies and children, the destruction of infrastructure upon which innocent civilians depends, . . and other war crimes which have been thoroughly documented by Amnesty International.
Is that right?
To quote you: “Yeah Right.”
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To clarify, David, I am asking you to be respectful towards your discussion partners – people like me.
To call me a “Putin cheerleader” is simply indulging in a personal attack instead of honestly participating in a rational discussion.
I do not avoid arguments with you by accusing you of being a Banderite. That would be extremely disrespectful considering the genocide the Banderites carried out. I consider your personal attacks on me as the same level of disrespect considering the crimes you accuse Putin of, whether you are correct or not.
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David, regarding the Levada polling figures – even most western sources accept them – on the whole. With such respected polling results we do not have to accept the actual figures, but it is traditional to accept the figures as indicative. That is why all credible commenters do accept that Putin has a lot of support – and we also have electoral figures (which are not the same as the polling support category) which shows that Putin has high support (although not in centres like Moscow and St Petersburg).
As for Crimea – again most credible western commentators do accept the Levada polling figures (while recognising that referendum figures often do not reflect the opposition who choose to boycott referendums).
The overwhelming support for Crimea’s return to Russia is understandable considering their history. Crimea was against its inclusion in an independent Ukraine, preferring independent Crimean status in the proposed Union with ex-Soviet state. Crimeans struggled since 1991 for independence from Ukraine or at least special status within Ukraine. Its experience within Ukraine was very negative as it suffered from lack of investment, etc.
You may wish to continue with your story that the Crimeans preferred to stick with a government in Kiev which resulted from a coup overthrowing a government they voted for and was influenced by ultra-nationalists who had already attacked Crimean’s during the Maidan period and subsequently after the overthrow of the elected government. But you ignore the facts.
I repeat a point I have made several times to you. You simply refuse to acknowledge the violent overthrow of the democratically elected president of Ukraine in February 2014. You simply ignore the removal of any legal government in that country and the understandable conflict that caused. How do you think you can make any intelligent comment on what happened in Ukraine if you refuse to actually consider what happened in that country at the time?
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David, I will take your comment and make a correction:
This is far more accurate. Although the number’s killed is rumoured to be much higher. And it is interesting that the UN figures for where those fleeing from Ukraine actually end up show Russia has taken the largest number of refugees. See my article Where are Ukrainian refugees going? – an update where I estimate that 48% of the Ukrainians that have left the country since 2014 fled to Russia.
There are reasons for this, of course. The war is basically taking place in the regions that are historically Russian and where the people a culturally and linguistically Russian.
I have no idea what you are talking about with your reference to Frontline.
I finish with the actual comment you made which I think is a very accurate description of your situation given that you have never acknowledged the violent overthrow of the Ukrainian president in February 2014 or the military aggression against the civilians of the Donbass since then.
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You have no idea what I am talking about with my reference to the Frontline piece. That might be part of the problem here. If you don’t read my comments and take a look at the links I have provided, no rational communication can possibly take place.
Nevertheless, I’m out. It’s pointless to try to reason with someone who is bent on defending a war criminal and who continually relies on Whataboutism.
Make your case at the Hague.
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David, this reminds me of the Faulty Towers episode where Basil was warned not to discuss the war. (Actually, this is good advice in social situations these days because of the level of misinformation and ethnic hatred).
You consistently attempt to ignore the 2014 Coup in Kiev. How can anyone understand what happened in Crimea or the current war if they exclude the coup from their considerations.
But there we go. Talk about the coupd and some people run away.
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Ken, I’m afraid I don’t watch Faulty Towers, so your reference was wasted on me.
Actually, I’m glamping right now, but I’m always glad to move my mind from this happy place in the Nexus back to the mundane world of political discussion. (Kudos to you if you get the Nexus reference 😉 . . . which, btw, has nothing to do with wrestling.)
What’s with all whataboutism? What about the coup. What about 2014 in Kyiv. You may not realize this, but humanity is not yet capable of travelling back in time. We can cry and lament about the past all we want, but we will never be able to change it.
All we can do is try to affect the wrongs of today, hope to stop any current atrocities, and possibly affect the future in a positive way.
If I believed for one minute that some kind of admission from me about Kyiv in 2014 would end the atrocities being committed in Ukraine today I would do it in a heartbeat.
However, if you are saying that war crimes committed by Russia in Ukraine today are a direct result of a political situation that occurred in Kyiv, then you are admitting that Russia is in clear violation of the Black Sea Fleet Treaty Agreement.
You will recall that according to the Treaty, which it signed in 1997, Russia was bound to “respect the sovereignty of Ukraine, honor its legislation and preclude interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine” and, furthermore, Russian military personnel had to show their “military identification cards” when crossing the Ukrainian-Russian border; Russian forces could operate “beyond their deployment sites” only after “coordination with the competent agencies of Ukraine.”
It’s Their Treaty!! They agreed to it. They signed it. And now they’re in violation of it.
Surely you don’t approve of war crimes being committed by Russia which have been thoroughly documented by multiple sources.
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David, you talk about “honor its legislation and preclude interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine” and yet you adamantly refuse to discuss the coup which threw away Ukraine’s legislation and the US involvement in it which was a blatant interference in Ukraine’s internal affairs.
It’s not a matter of crying and lamenting the past – but pointing out that if the EU brokered settlement of the Maidan crisis in February 2014 had been followed, or that the Minsk agreements had been followed we would not now be in this situation. And these things were not followed because of the role of the ultranationalists (nurtured by the USA) and European politicians who (by their subsequent admission) never intended that the Minsk agreements would be followed. They chose instead the path of war and have bitten off far more than they expected.
NATO (the USA) is crying over spilt milk and want to get a ceasefire – but they simply won’t get it on their grounds. They have lost.
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Ken, speaking of “adamantly refusing to discuss” something, I’ll ask a second time:
“Surely you don’t approve of war crimes being committed by Russia which have been thoroughly documented by multiple sources.” Do you?
I wonder if you even hear yourself. Your quote: “It’s not a matter of crying and lamenting the past, . . ”
Then you go on to lament the past: ” if the EU brokered settlement of the Maidan crisis in February 2014 had been followed, or that the Minsk agreements had been followed we would not now be in this situation.”
Because this is exactly what you’re doing. Re-read your own paragraph.
And no, the only reason “we” are in this situation is because Vladimir Putin decided to ignore the Black Sea Fleet Treaty which his country signed and agreed to, by involving itself in the internal affairs of the sovereign nation of Ukraine where his military is now committing atrocities against the Ukrainian people, which has led to mass dissent in Russia, widespread protest, crushing police brutality, sweeping censorship, and outrageous prison sentences for the mildest of offences (like putting a label on merchandise in a store saying this is the worst inflation since the 1990s – Hardly a prison-worthy offense, wouldn’t you agree?)
The past is the past. Ukraine is what it is. Nothing can be done about that. Crying and lamenting about it is pointless. The only thing we can hope to affect are the atrocities occurring today.
So I’ll ask a third time: Do you approve of the war crimes being committed by Russia in Ukraine today? Or would you rather put the blame on things in the past which cannot be changed?
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I re-read your first paragraph. Here it is: “David, you talk about “honor its legislation and preclude interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine” and yet you adamantly refuse to discuss the coup which threw away Ukraine’s legislation and the US involvement in it which was a blatant interference in Ukraine’s internal affairs.”
You are being intellectually dishonest here.
The quote you’ve taken from me, “honor its (Ukrainian) legislation and preclude interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine,” isn’t from me, it’s from the Black Sea Fleet Treaty, which Russia agreed to.
You go on to say, “and yet you adamantly refuse to discuss the coup which threw away Ukraine’s legislation and the US involvement . .”
Do you see what you’ve done here? You’ve taken a portion of an agreement in which Russia agreed not to involve itself in Ukrainian affairs and you knowingly, and wrongly applied that agreement to a country that never agreed to it.
what·a·bout·ism (a logical fallacy)
nounBRITISH
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.
In the future, please try to avoid the logical fallacies. These arguments are unworthy of you.
By the way, do you approve of the atrocities and war crimes being committed by Russia in Ukraine today?
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David, I will rephrase this charge of yours against me:
“So I’ll ask a third time: Do you approve of the war crimes being committed by Russia in Ukraine today? Or would you rather put the blame on things in the past which cannot be changed?”
Rephased against you:
“Do you approve of the way you have been beating your wife today? Or would you rather put the blame on things in the past which cannot be changed?”
See the trick.
You talk about war crimes as if they have happened without providing any evidence and as if they had been carried out by one side without providing any evidence. You think you can do that because of the widespread Russophobia – a racist atmosphere where general charges like that can be made and people declared guilty without evidence.
Why not talk about specifics – provide your evidence of war crimes?
What about starting with the declaration of President Poroshenko from late 2014 in his declaration to the people of Donbass who were being shelled and bombed by Ukrainian forces?
“we [in Ukraine] will have work; they – [in the Donbas] won’t. We will have pensions – they won’t. We will care for our children and pensioners – they won’t. Our children will go to school, to kindergartens – their children will sit in cellars. They don’t know how to organize or do anything. This, ultimately, is how we will win this war.”
Or perhaps you prefer to discuss something more current (you think) like the ICC declaration of war crimes against Putin and Ms Lvova-Belova for deporting children. Why not as I have specifically researched that situation, so I am able to discuss specifics?
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Just out of curiosity, are you a Star Trek fan?
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Ken,
Just out of curiosity, . . Are you a Star Trek fan?
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No, David. I prefer hard science fiction.
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Ever read or see “Contact?”
Back to business.
Your quote: “You talk about war crimes as if they have happened without providing any evidence . . . Why not talk about specifics – provide your evidence of war crimes?”
I guess you failed to watch the second Frontline piece I provided, which was entitled, “Putin’s Attack on Ukraine: Documenting War Crimes,” in which specific war crimes were being documented in, among other places, Bucha.
Ken, we can only lead a horse to water. We can’t make him drink.
It really is pointless to have a rational discussion with you.
(by the way, the obvious answer to the question should have been, “No. I don’t approve of war crimes being committed today by Russia in Ukraine. . . . This reminds me of when Liz Cheney asked Michael Flynn, under oath, whether he believed in the peaceful transfer of power in the United States, and he pled the 5th. The answer should have been easy.)
Bye. Have a nice life.
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Correction: I should have said, “It really is pointless to TRY to have a rational discussion with you.”
Good luck with your life, and by all means, Never Ever look at any evidence that is provided to you which may contradict your preconceived biases. You might get a headache.
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I had already mentioned that the link you provided in https://openparachute.wordpress.com/2023/07/10/following-the-war-in-ukraine-yeah-right/#comment-282253 did not work. You ingored my comment.
But providing links is not a legitimate form of discussion anyway. Why not discuss the evidence you rely on? Otherwise, I have no idea what you are talking about and can only conclude you have no idea either (because you would not rely on links if you could provide evidence).
Bu you are running away and the mention of evidence. Just as you run away at the mention of the ovehtwo of the elected voegernment in Kiev in Febryay 2014.
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Actually you said, “Apparently this video can’t be shown here either,” as a comment by itself directly under one of your own links. https://openparachute.wordpress.com/2023/07/10/following-the-war-in-ukraine-yeah-right/#comment-282273
Your quote: “But providing links is not a legitimate form of discussion anyway.”
What are you talking about. You do it all the time.
Besides, the link of mine which you just referenced was the first of two Frontline pieces that I provided. The one you just referenced documented widespread dissent within Russia itself. That link works for me.
This is the second link I have already provided. You wish me to discuss it. I could describe the digging up of civilians with hands tied behind their backs, but it would be more effective for you to watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSFjGXKS59Q
I’m not running away from discussion about the coup in Kyiv. It’s simply irrelevant to illegal war crimes being committed today. It’s like saying that if the Maori people rose up today and began slaughtering New Zealanders of European descendent, they would be entirely justified to do so because of the theft of their land.
You basically rely on two arguments. What you call Russophobia, and the 2014 coup. Neither are justifications for war crimes.
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The link works. We can discuss it after you view it
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The new link works – the original doesn’t.
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There is the problem with these sorts of allegations (“I could describe the digging up of civilians with hands tied behind their backs”) is simply narrative – that both sides use. Evidence will be presented by never treated to objective and detailed investigation.
The punitive treatment of citizens in the places which Russia withdrew from have also been used in documentaries on RT as evidence of the war crimes committed by the Kiev regime. These have been documented for places like Bucha, the Kharkiv and the Kherson regions. Especially where the punitive military groups sent in to seek out “collaborators” are groups like the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion – which happened in Bucha.
The dubious nature of this sort of evidence can be seen in this brief video from Bucha.
https://twitter.com/A__Alimov/status/1511069611969630218
There is a real fear among Ukrainians remaining behind when Russian forces withdraw – and even among Ukrainians living in areas not yet “liberated” by Russia like Kharkov which a “Russian city.” It is easy to be charged with collaboration which has harsh legal penalties – and in many cases the law doesn’t even operate.
Consider the case of Gonzalo Lira – a US/Chilean citizen. Publicly arrested by the secret police, and dragged from his flat in Kharkov, 2 months ago. Nothing heard from since. No legal processes and no effort by US authorities to make enquiries about this (see https://thegrayzone.com/2023/06/01/father-gonzalo-lira-american-jailed-in-ukraine-imprisonment/).
His crime, as a blogger, was to hold very interesting round table discussions about geopolitics and the situation in Ukraine. Several of which I have watched.
There have also been well documented cases where people fleeing the war zone in the Kharkiv and Zaphorozia regions in car convoys have been murdered when the car convoy was fired upon.
Of course, the indiscriminate shelling of residential and business areas of Donetsk city over the last 9 years is well known and the deaths resulting from this have been documented.
Now, I think we need to accept that war crimes are to a large extent inevitable. Soldiers can easily lose their cool in situations that are very emotional.
I have seen well documented cases of POWs being shot by both the Russian side and the Ukrainian side (particularly the Kraken and Georgian militias). It would be nice to believe that the military administrations would deal with such crimes committed by their own troops.
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You realize that 90% of your response was little more than Whataboutism. Let’s review exactly what that is:
what·a·bout·ism
nounBRITISH
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.
Of course retribution has always existed for collaboration with the enemy. In my own country, as far back as its inception, Loyalists were hunted down and hanged after the Revolutionary War. . . . Forward ahead to post WWII in France where Nazi collaborators were shot. In Vietnam after the U.S. left, collaborators were killed. And it’s a safe bet that collaborators are being hunted down today by the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Certainly you’re not shocked by this. In fact, I’d be surprised if there were no consequences for collaboration with the invader.
Then there’s the physical evidence, “the digging up of civilians with hands tied behind their backs, or the corpses found at 144 Yablunska Street. . . As expected, you employ a barrage of defense techniques to question its authenticity. Unfortunately, there are the eyewitness accounts and video evidence of these same civilians, with hands tied behind their backs, being marched by the Russian military to that same address, 144 Yablunska Street.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me, as it would to any normal person.
To your other point of whataboutism, of course there is a huge difference between civilians being killed as collateral damage, and the intentional murder of civilians by the military.
You say, ” It would be nice to believe that the military administrations would deal with such crimes committed by their own troops.”
I think the U.S. has been fairly good about that. For example, . . In Afghanistan, Robert Bales was convicted for the murders of 16 Afghan civilians. Andrew Holmes was one of 5 soldiers convicted of killing 3 Afghans in Kandahar. Soldiers who photographed themselves urinating on dead Taliban were punished. (And in my mind, their real crime was Stupidity, photographing themselves doing it.) . . . In Iraq, everyone involved in the torture and abuse of prisoners at Abu Gharaib was punished. . . Sure, the ring-leaders of that illegal invasion are still free, but as I recall, Donald Rumsfeld may still be arrested for war crimes if he ever visits Germany. Now THAT would be nice.
Regarding the Russian illegal invasion itself and the basis for it, something occurred to me about the fundamental root cause of it that never really dawned on me before. You continually blame it on a coup, but I think it’s even more basic than that.
I realized it when I watched this clip of Putin berating one of his security advisors who suggested more negotiations with Kyiv rather than an immediate illegal invasion.
Here, Putin says, “Are you suggesting we start negotiations? . . Or recognize sovereignty?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-u8EoWcI
“Or Recognize Sovereignty?!!!”
Putin doesn’t even accept that Ukraine is a sovereign nation. That appears to be the underlying problem here.
So I’ll put the question to you. Do you accept the sovereignty of Ukraine?
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Looking at it again, I think I misinterpreted that exchange. More likely, Putin required complete verbal support for recognition of Donbass sovereignty. My bad. Please ignore the question I put to you.
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Regarding the sovereignty of the two breakaway republics in Donbass. It might have been better if the Russian Federation had recognised their sovereignty in 20114/2014. Instead, Putin pursued a diplomatic process which would have led to preserving the territorial sovereignty of Ukraine and an arrangement recongising the language rights of ethnic minorities. Despite this being an arrangement Europeans should have recognized (often used in their own countries) the leaders of Germany, France and Ukraine hypocritically adhered to the Minsk agreement while in reality using this time to rearm Ukraine to prepare for a military, rather than peaceful, solution to the presence of the Donbass republics.
The Minsk Agreements were unanimously endorsed by the UNSC – so the hypocrisy was even more widespread. The USA obviously participated in the rearming of Ukraine and even New Zealand/Aotearoa showed its hypocrisy because it was a member of the UNSC at the time but has since gone along with sending arms to Ukraine and supported the US role in this mess.
Putin admits he was mistaken to trust western leaders in these and other agreements. I think he admits that the Russians should have sent their troops into Easten Ukraine in 2014 when there was no legitimate government in Kiev, armed militias were invading the area and ultranationalists were committing atrocities while the Ukrainian army had no legitimacy, with a large proportion defecting to the rebels. It was obviously considered at the time as the Federation Council gave the president the legitimate rights to send troops to fight outside Russian Borders. The Council withdrew the permission after several weeks when nothing happened.
Recognition of the Donbass republics did not happen until early 2014 – it was a necessary legal step to justify the invasion that occurred that February.
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David, this charge of “whataboutism” seems to be used a lot by the apologists of the role of neo-Nazis and the US in this war. Here you are simply using it to avoid a proper investigation of charges. You want everything your propagandists allege to be accepted without any critical and intelligent consideration. As a scientist, that approach is foreign to me.
This becomes absurd.
You say:
I never “employ[ed] a barrage of defense techniques to question its authenticity.” I simply couldn’t have because you never advanced this text. And even now you don’t attribute the text – perhaps because you don’t want me to critically consider the actual evidence – if any.
I am aware this charge of finding corpses with hands tied behind their backs came up after the retreat of Russia forces from the Kharkov region. At the time I saw online video and photographic evidence of corpses being dug up in one of the cemeteries. To me the charges were probably false. For example, the graves were marked by Orthodox crosses and close inspection of the photos showed many had been interned long before the invasion (Dates were on the crosses).
One photo I saw of a corpse with tied hands looked false – the rope used was very clean, obviously new, despite the stains on the corpse.
It is simply a fact that the first casualty in war is truth (accompanied by reason). All sides will produce propaganda and there is plenty of scope for manufacturing false evidence. That is why an intelligent person should not accept anything without analysing the claim critically and sensibly. Yes, this is difficult. It is much easier to go with your biases and support anything which shows the enemy you hate to be horrible.
The problem here, of course, is irrational hatred – particularly of Russians. I think we should reject that and accept Russians are normal people with all the strengths and weaknesses one can expect. The current extreme Russophobia is simply racist. And the support we give to neo-Nazis in Ukraine astounds me after all I have learned about the last world war. I never expected whole populations to fall into that trap again.
You don’t attribute the information you use I don’t think I have seen it. But I have seen the Yale study used by ICC to issue arrest warrants against Putin and Ms Lvova-Belova for allegedly deporting children. Perhaps we could discuss that report and the actual cases.
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Ken, let us not speak of things which lead to t
he further division of humanity. History will be its own judge. Our words are inconsequential. Let’s move on to further adventures!! 😊
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by the way, to clear something up for you, this was what I had said with your response:
” . . . civilians, with hands tied behind their backs, being marched by the Russian military to that same address, 144 Yablunska Street.”
Ken: ” . . you never advanced this text. And even now you don’t attribute the text – perhaps because you don’t want me to critically consider the actual evidence – if any. . . . .You don’t attribute the information you use I don’t think I have seen it. ”
No mystery. There was no need to cite the source. It’s from the Frontline piece that I provided a link for, and you said you had watched.
Regarding the rest of your comment which begins, “One photo I saw of a corpse with tied hands looked false – the rope used was very clean, obviously new, despite the stains on the corpse,” I’m afraid I can’t comment on that. You didn’t attribute your source.
“. . perhaps because you don’t want me to critically consider the actual evidence – if any.” – to quote you.
Then you move on to your typical “Russophobia” bullshit victimization crap. . . . Doesn’t it all get boring? Bore, bore, bore.
Our words are meaningless in the larger historical picture. Maybe its time to move on.
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David – come on! Your assertion “It’s from the Frontline piece that I provided a link for, and you said you had watched” is ridiculous. I said I had no idea of what Frontline report you were talking about, and I never watched your video (the link simply did not work).
No, I didn’t provide a link to the videos and photos I referred to. I don’t collect links to everything I watch.
In simple terms – I have not researched, in detail, the Bucha or Kharkiv situations and have not collected the documents relevant to them. You also don’t seem to quote from documents on them as you have not provided a link to them (perhaps you could find them from the Frontline documentary you refer to – simply referring to a documentary is not evidence). We are in exactly the same boat here – referring to something we have watched but not having the evidence at hand. I would be willing to discuss any relevant document – one problem with these subjects is censorship. People have been thrown off YouTube and Facebook for simply challenging the establishment narrative of Bucha.
I have researched the child “deportation” charges because this is what the ICC based its arrest warrants on. Given that importance of the ICC claims and not the claims you refer to (the ICC made nothing of them), I wondered if you were interested in discussing the details of the Yale study the ICC based its arrest warrants on.
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David – referring to the Russophobia problem as “bullshit” is something I might expect from a racist. it’s a bit like referring to the apartheid stories in Sout Africa or in the USA as “bullshit” when they obviously weren’t.
And what do you think a Russian would make of your dismissal of the problems they face in travelling outside their countries, moving their cars over borders, having their long-term citizenship in one of the Baltic republics withdrawn, etc., etc.?
We all face this problem in the information/disinformation sphere. Information is simply rejected if it is in anyway connected to a Russian source but disinformation from outside Russia is uncritically accepted if it denounces Russia – evidence is never required. That is simply racist.
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Your quote: “I said I had no idea of what Frontline report you were talking about, and I never watched your video (the link simply did not work).”
Ken | July 18, 2023 at 10:43 am |
The new link works – the original doesn’t.
——————————-
Your quote: ” . . you never advanced this text. And even now you don’t attribute the text – perhaps because you don’t want me to critically consider the actual evidence – if any.”
Your quote: “No, I didn’t provide a link to the videos and photos I referred to. I don’t collect links to everything I watch.”
Question: Are you even for real? You can’t be enjoying this. . .
And here we go with the “Racist” bullshit again. Ken, I’m not the one trying to justify a war in which 50,000-100,000 Russian soldiers have been killed. That would be you.
And we don’t know how many Russian soldiers have been killed. The Russian government which you constantly defend won’t release the real numbers. Is that what you’re defending? Censorship of the dead? There’s your free and open society lol
We know tens of thousands of Russians have been killed in this war; so many in fact that they’ve gone to prisons to recruit more soldiers. Forbes estimates about 270,000 killed and wounded Russians so far in Ukraine.
In 20 years in Afghanistan & Iraq, the U.S. lost 5000 soldiers – and that left a scar on our nation. I can’t imagine how horrible this war must be for the Russian people.
You’re the racist, Ken. You’re trying to justify an illegal invasion that has led to the deaths of many many tens of thousands of Russians. For all practical purposes, you’re the one who hates the Russian people, and you’re the one doing them real harm.
It’s getting to the point where almost everybody in Russia knows someone who has lost a family member to this war.
If it was up to me, not one more Russian soldier would die in Ukraine. That doesn’t make me a racist against the Russian people. It means I love the Russian people. I would like it if they would stop dying.
My family came from the Volga River region of Russia. I’m more Russian than you are.
You throw out claims of racist Russophobia, while justifying the slaughter of them. Maybe if you could get over your own hatred of the Russian people you could see the situation for what it is.
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David, don’t stick with your obvious false allegation that I had watched your video – I simply haven’t. The original link did not work, you later provided an updated link but I have not had time to look at a 2 hr documentary. it is that simple.
I have, however, looked at the report which said to have justfied the only ICC warrant of war crimes that has yet been produced in this war (related to alleged child deportation). So I am ready to discuss that in detail. Are you up for that?
I linked to this very short video (did you watch it) which shows ha reprts and docujemntaries of war crimes can be distorted.
https://twitter.com/A__Alimov/status/1511069611969630218
This an obvious problem when you is just so much disifnormation floating around and where very biased actors are invovled in producing reports and dopcumentaries. This disinformation feld is in fact recognised as very important in this war. The only solution is to approach each claim intelligently and crticially – and to use multiple sources. I keep labouring this point.
But I repeat, are you up to discussing the evidence around the only ICC arrest warrants issued for war crimes in this war? I am.
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Well I dunno, Ken. I really have no interest in engaging in your straw-man argument about deported children.
But I can play that game too. Here’s a straw-man question of my own. . . . Do you really like the fact that the RF State censors how many of its sons are being killed in Ukraine? . . Is that something you like? Censorship of the dead?
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David, you make this idiotic claim:
“You’re the racist, Ken. You’re trying to justify an illegal invasion that has led to the deaths of many many tens of thousands of Russians. For all practical purposes, you’re the one who hates the Russian people, and you’re the one doing them real harm.”
I have often tried to explain the cause, the event’s leading up to the NATO/Russia war playing out in Ukraine. Is that what you mean by “justification?”
I initially described the Russian invasion of Ukraine as “illegal” in international law. This is because I found, like many others, that the actions taken against ethnic Russians in Ukraine since 2014 was something less than genocide (and note that some Russian sources fell back to calling the actions “genocide-like”). Subsequently I have become more and more horrified about those “genocide-like” actions so now see this argument better supported.
I added that the Russian leadership did justify their actions using legal arguments with recourse to the UN Charter, etc. Exactly the same as all superpowers (including most pointedly the USA) have done in their many invasions. So perhaps this war is similar to the US wars in Indochina, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc., to mention only a few. That raises the question – why the difference in the political response to this war? (I think some important answers can be made to that question which help to explain the causes of this particular war).
Incidentally, my attitude was similar to those of the expert academics Professor Jeffrey Sachs, Richard Sawka, Tarik Cyril Amar, Ivan Katchanovski, and I suspect many others (I have read, or listened to, these ones). These have all postulated that the Russian Federation still had diplomatic moves they could have made. Like them, though, I cannot describe what those moves would have been. Incidentally, those experts all argue along similar lines I use to the causes of the war and the responsibility of the US and neo-Nazis for this war.
If you wish to call me racist for not being blind to what happened in Europe after 1991, to the rise of ultra-nationalists in Ukraine after independence and to the often-declared ambitions the USA has expressed towards the Russian Federation then you will end up calling these experts on Russia, Ukraine, geopolitics, etc., racist as well.
But perhaps you would. One of the characteristics of the current ideological atmosphere is that anyone wishing to discuss the facts on cases like this gets accused of campaigning for Putin, etc, in derogatory ways. Simply a way of closing down an argument and I believe, in essence, a racist way.
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David, I think it understandable that combatants will be something less than honest about their casualties.
In this current war the Ukrainians have been extremely secretive – and no wonder as most semi-objective sources describe these losses as horrendous. Many times greater than the Russian casualties (although this difference in inherent in the two different battle approaches).
The Russian Minister of Defense has made semi-regular announcements of Russian casualties. To be taken with a spoon of salt, of course. But, notably, the BBC made their own estimates of Russia deaths using burials, death notices, etc., and found the numbers were similar.
I know people like to discuss speculated numbers – I cannot see the point. But all the data I have seen show the Ukrainian casualties as far larger than the Russian ones.
The countries are different in size, of course, but Russia has had only one mobilization and, at last count I remember, the Ukrainians have had 12. Ukrainian bans external travel for men (easily solved with a bribe of course) – the Russians don’t. There have been street protests of soldier’s wives in Kiev because the cemeteries are too small – and the few photographs I have seen show large areas of recent military burials in Ukraine.
The Ukrainians released prisoners (and stupidly gave them arms) right at the start and use them in their military. The Russian did for a while – I understand that has now recently stopped. I think it is a stupid practice – but I also think that about prisons.
You have mentioned Russians reportedly knowing at least one person killed. (I would be interested in seeing that survey – was it from a reputable polling agency). The Ukrainians have polled this several times now. The most recent poll showed the number had shot up to 4 or more dead (from memory – I should hunt out the source – it was a Ukrainian paper). A big jump probably attributable to the recent failed counter offensive where the Ukrainian deaths were horrendous.
I think all deaths in wars are dreadful. I actually find myself grieving more for the Ukrainian situation. I believe the Russian Federation will win this war with NATO (provided we don’t slide into use of nuclear arms). They will grieve for their losses of course – but these will be far less than those suffered by Ukraine. The way this war is going, Ukraine may not exist as a country at the end but if it does it will have lost everything. No industry, huge debts. It will be a failed state with a lost generation of men.
Most of all – lost opportunities. If the correct paths had been taken in February 2014, December 2021 and March 2022 Ukraine could have survived. I just hope the real war criminals responsible for this are caught and prosecuted.
But a question for you. If you believe the story of deported children is a straw man argument, why do you think the ICC issued the arrest warrants?
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Ken, I had asked you if you were ok with the Russian Federation censoring the number of its sons which had been killed in Ukraine. . . . That’s a Yes or No question. Are you ok with it?
You answered: “In this current war the Ukrainians have been extremely secretive –”
what·a·bout·ism
nounBRITISH
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.
The rest of your lengthy spin is irrelevant. You never answered the question. Are you, as a man, ok with the RF government hiding the number of its sons it has asked to die in this failed illegal invasion? Are you ok with the State hiding the number of deaths the Russian children have had to endure?
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I’m just wondering, where are the people marching on the streets demanding peace, as they did during the Vietnam and Iraq wars?
Are the only people suggesting we aim for peace “crazy” people like Donald Trump and RFK Jr?
Is it now fashionable to want to nuke the entire planet?
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David, your question lacks specificity -= this is why it invites the response “are you OK with the fact you regularly beat your wife? Yes or No!”
What about providing some specificity?
1: Is there a Russia law you are referring to (there may we be laws on printing speculative numbers for example)?
2: Are Mothers denied information on the deaths of their serving sons or daughters? Provide the evidence for this.
3: Are the numbers released by the Ministery of Defense censored – not published? Provide evidence for this.
If the Russian Federation hides the number of serving soldiers deaths in any of the ways indicated in my questions – no I am not OK with that. But you are not providing any specific instants – I am asked to accept a wild claim without anything to support it. And, no, a wild unsupported claim does not become true because it is reported in the media.
To deal with the possibilities I have numbered.
I have seen (I think) two reports of numbers given by the Minster of Defense (No 3) – yes, I urged taking salt with them. But that performance is far better than what we get from Ukraine of the US.
I have not seen any evidence of Mothers denied information (No 2)- but sure there could be delays and “missing in action” problems.
I fully believe there could be laws on speculative reporting and disinformation (number 1). Perhaps this is what you mean?
I am not OK with any censorship to the degree it occurs in Russia and especially in Ukraine (where disinformation is rife). But I am also not OK with the promotion of disinformation and fake figures which I am sure happens in this war. One just has to look at the wide difference in numbers presented by ideologically motivated propagandists in this war. Obviously, they can’t all be correct.
By the way, the Russian MOD provides number of battle losses of Ukrainian soldiers and vehicles (but not of their own). By themselves they are useless and lots of salt is involved. But over time they can indicate trends in the fighting. The Russian MOD claims these figures are obtained from the Ukrainian reports military commanders make every day.
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David, you sink readily into the charge of “whataboutism” which makes your arguments ridiculous. You aren’t able to look at a proper picture.
You find it permissible to discuss the events in Crimea in February/March of 2014 but don’t find it permissible to discuss the coup in Kiev in February 2014.
You criticize the Crimean authorities for not including the 2013 Ukrainian constitution in the list of referendum choices in March 2014 – yet you ignore the fact that the coup leaders in Kiev had disposed of that constitution in one of their first acts – without a referendum (nothing has been put to referendums in Ukraine since February 2014 even though they were required by the Minsk agreements).
You find it permissible to make wild claims about Putin and his policies but deny the chance to talk about the tragedy of the 90s and the recovery of the Russian Federation under Putin’s presidency. This is why he gets such high support. Unless you understand that background you cannot understand why there are no credible liberal political parties in Russia (which I think is a tragic loss).
Your charges of wahtaboutism are simply being used to prevent a rational discussion and to hide the real context of today’s situations.
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Ken, I love ya man. Hope the link works 🤞
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Andy, I do notice some peace marches in Germany and Poland. I think these will accelerate as conditions worsen in those countries.
But I am sad about the peace movement in general. I was an early peace activist (just got a freedom of information request back from the SIS and the newspaper clippings they sent (not much else) shows they opened a file on me while I was at high school because of my letters to the editor on peace issues and participation in a Hiroshima Day march!
They must have had files on a huge number of people.
But I recognized the introduction of irrationality into the peace movement from the late 70s on. Now that has degraded to woke activism and people only demonstrate about health measures and gender identification now. The judgment gene seems to have taken over.
So sad considering that we are much closer to a nuclear war than we were in the 80s.
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Neighbouring countries are having refugees foisted upon them which is straining local economies, esp Poland.
You are right about activism in general, Ken Kudos too for being a “peace activist” back in the day
Corporations these days seem more concerned with their ESG scores than customers, hence Bud Light can commit commercial suicide at the expense of being woke.
Activism that is deemed acceptable is 100% aligned with corporate values: climate, pharma, gender, etc.
If you push back on e.g vaccine mandates then you get cancelled.
If you belong to Just Stop Oil and block traffic, the police turn a blind eye.
Similarly, if you punch a 70 year old woman in the face, because she is a “Terf”, that is somehow OK.
Somehow, we need to get back to some core values and encourage independent thinking. Seeking peace in Ukraine is now an “outside view”, which as you say Ken is a worry when we face potential nuclear conflict.
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Ken, they got you, man. Maybe put something into diet other than right wing propaganda.
Your quote: “But I recognized the introduction of irrationality into the peace movement from the late 70s on. Now that has degraded to woke activism . . . ”
Definition of “Woke.”: “aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice), . . . ” https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/woke-meaning-origin#:~:text=Woke%20is%20now%20defined%20in,the%20Black%20Lives%20Matter%20movement.
Guess what. That’s not a bad thing.
Don’t worry. That’s not quite as upside-down as Marjorie Taylor Green criticizing president Biden for spending money on Education and Infrastructure, which he turned around and used as a political ad lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTi8V4PWHK4
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David, I don’t know where you got my “right wing propaganda” diet from. And, anyway, I have long recognised that the terms “left” and “right” are meaningless these days.
I don’t know about the term “woke” – I tend to stick by older descriptions. I may show my age but one of books that influenced me most amongst Lenin’s writings was “Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder.” (Showing my “left-wing” credentials there).
Sure, Lenin was describing bigger problemns (trying to end the war with Poland so as to save the Russian rebvolution) but I tbink “Infantile Disorder” more adequaltely describes the situation today than a slang tem no one seems to understand.
But that infantilke disorder seems to have penetrated to quite high levels. Into academia, into scientific organisations, and of course the protest movement in a wide variety of flavours.
Mind you the level of approved narrative these people have imposed on us is not new. We have seesn it all before. I suspect, though, the frantic impostion of narrative we see today initated in the US with Clinton’s response to her electoral defeat.
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