Canada is in uproar after the exposure that its parliament on September 22 provided a standing ovation to a Nazi veteran who had been invited into the chamber to participate in the parliamentary welcome to Ukrainian President Zelensky. Yaroslav Hunka, 98, a Ukrainian man who volunteered for service in Nazi Germany’s SS Galizien during World War II received two standing ovations led by the speaker Anthony Rota who had invited him to the session. Rota described Hunka as a Ukrainian war veteran, from the second world war, who “fought for Ukrainian independence against the Russians.”
That got one standing ovation. The second came when the speaker declared that Hunka was “a Ukrainian hero, a Canadian hero, and we thank him for all his service.”
How could this happen? Two standing ovations from Canadian lawmakers, and from the president of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky, for a representative of the most evil of military formations. The Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies condemned SS Galizien as “responsible for the mass murder of innocent civilians with a level of brutality and malice that is unimaginable.”
How could this happen? Surely Anthony Rota and other members of the Ukrainian parliament have IQ levels a bit higher than room temperature (Centigrade not Fahrenheit). Surely, they were aware that the Russians Hunka fought against were members of the Soviet Red Army which was fighting to liberate Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe from Nazism. Surely, they know at the time there was no question of fighting for independence from the Russians – it was a matter of fighting to liberate Ukraine from Nazi Germany. And that required fighting alongside the Red Army and Soviet Partisans, not serving in a Nazi military unity fighting the Red Army.
As for President Zelensky, he surely knew what this description meant. His own grandfather Semyon (Simon) Ivanovych Zelenskyy served in the Red Army during World War II. Even more painful is the fact that his grandfather and his two brothers were killed in the Holocaust.
I despair at attitudes today. Do we no longer despise Nazis and what they did? If history were repeated, would we be siding with the Nazis today? Or do we no longer concern ourselves with facts and instead go for the emotion of the moment or the approved narrative? How could any sensible person not know what the situation described by Canadian Parliamentary Speaker Rota really meant?
I should add that my mother was brought up in Germany and Prague in the 1940s.
She was taken to an internment camp when the Russians “liberated” Prague in the Prague Offensive at the end of the war.
Her mother and two youngest children died in one of those camps.
I could blame “Russians” or whatever, but ultimately I’m anti-war.
By the way Ken, I’m very grateful that you don’t censor my comments here. I know I was a troll back in the day, but things have changed.
Best wishes
Andy
Richard, do you believe that these apologies are genuine? Or they will be the end of the matter?
I think they are simply apologizing for having made an ignorant mistake with the presentation. The ignorance was in their belief in the acceptance of their historical lies and their advocating of hero status. Not in the reality of Hunka’s history of even the actual presence of people like him in the Ukrainian diaspora of Canada. They know that only too well.
Trudeau, Rota and Zelensky had all met with Hunka before the parliamentary session. That was confirmed by a family member’s post – hastily withdrawn when the whole thing blew up. Hunka was well known in the Ukrainian diaspora – he had been very active in the community and the anti-war protest.
These leaders and the whole parliament had no trouble going along with the historical lies – they a
are part of the Canadian culture. Their mistake (and this all they are apologising for, is that they had thought Hunka’s involvement with the SS Galizien would by publicly acceptable.
And it would have been if not for the protest of “respectable” Jewish groups. Protests by, for example, the Russian government or Ukrainian historians, like John-Paul Himka, in Canda writing about what really happened, could have easily been ignored is disparaged as simply “Putin’s talking point” or “Russian disinformation.” But a “respectable” Jewish group had too much ideological standing to been disparaged in this manner.
Ironically, if they had chosen someone of equal standing in the diaspora who had committed war crimes far worse than hose committed by members of the SS Galizien in their fight against the Soviet army and partisans, and for “Ukrainian independence” the official Jewish groups may have been silent and other protests (including even those from the Polish government) could have been ignored. We would all have been happy.
The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and its armed force, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army had a huge responsibility for the Holocaust in Ukraine (where are large proportion of Jewish deaths ]occurred. They were also responsible for the brutal slaughter of Poles, Soviet partisans and soldiers in Ukraine and Belarus.
The Volhyn massacres of about 100,000 Poles was particularly brutal. This act of genocide is marked annually in Poland, and it is a sore point in Polish0-Ulrainian relations. Poles regularly complain about the fact that Ukraine treats the leaders of this Ukrainian ultranationalist movement as heroes.
The mistake Trudeau and Rota made was not realising how repugnant their hero worship of a known Nazi would be. Perhaps if they had chosen someone worse, they would have got away with it. OUN sounds so much more innocent.
Sorry, late reply, I checked out for a few days, as is my wont.
“Richard, do you believe that these apologies are genuine?”
Yes, they had no choice but to apologise, it was a blunder of colossal proportions.
That is not to say that the error wasn’t reflection and result of their innate biases, or to say that they even recognise their biases as a result of having such a result exposed. They’ll continue to bash Russia/Putin. and anything or anybody associated, as a kneejerk reaction and at every opportunity, before engaging their brains.
“Or they will be the end of the matter?”
I doubt it, their bias is unlikely to have changed,
Anti Russian and anti USSR/anti Chinese prejudice is part of the N. American DNA. Its citizens have been steeped in it from cradle to grave, for well over a century.
It’s difficult to find anyone from that part of the world that you an have a rational conversation with in regard to Russia.
There was a short period in the 1990s when a detente and cooperation between USA (plus its minions) and Russia might reconcile and work together. That was when the US industrial and financial capitalists saw the economies of Russia and the Eastern bloc as being wide open for exploitation by western institutions and interests.
That era was short lived and ceased as soon as Putin demonstrated that that wasn’t going to happen. Putin would oversee the installation of his own home grown elite industrial and financial monopolists, so bugger off USA.
Since then, Putin has been Beelzebub incarnate to the USA, and Russia is again their gravest enemy.
Back to the Ukraine topic, the 2016 film Wolyn or “Hatred” is a visceral illustration of the Volhynia massacres. I presume that you have mentioned it before, it’s accessible on YouTube.
I would like to stress,that we can discuss historical grievances, massacres, invasions alliances etc over and over, and yes, it’s all relevant, particularly to those on the ground in situ.
But in my view this current conflict boils down to US hegemony and the struggle for world economic dominance by the USA and its capitalist interests. Without that, USA would have no military interest in anything outside ensuring the integrity its borders and internal sovereignty.
The USA will stand no rivals.
Yes, I have seen Wolyn. It was chilling – especially the ultranationalists yelling Slave Ukraini whilst slaughtering the Poles. That is truly a fascist slogan and the virtue signalers who have adopted are simply stupid.
Meanwhile, with the Israeli bombing of the Gaza hospital it looks like the world may have bigger problems than the relatively civil Ukrainian conflict.
So far, it would appear that Al Jazeera and Channel 12 both have independent video of the launch and impact of the missile a few seconds later – neither moving their camera on its tripod.
Video shows minimal damage to the hospital. It appears the car park was hit.
Video doesn’t show crater(s) typical of a bomb impact.
The NYT (pro-Palestinian) keeps changing its front page headline – from “Israeli strike,” to “strike,” to “blast”, as well as changing the number of killed.
Applying bayesian theory, it seems that a misfired Hamas missile is the most likely cause of the explosion in the hospital car park.
You may have seen this discussion Richard – but I found it interesting. Our media is virtually silent on the huge divisions between the secular left and extreme religious right in Israel.
You may have seen this discussion Richard – but I found it interesting. Our media is virtually silent on the huge divisions between the secular left and extrem religious right in Israel.
I have always found resort to Bayesian theory in religious and political discussion extremely dishonest – a mechanism to give “scientific” legitimacy to bias.
But, yes, one must be wary of an initial emotional reaction. And also wary of attempts to confuse the issue with disinformation (which both sides are certainly capable of).
In my observation the missile video has already been discredited (time stamps and when viewed from different perspective the original story is shown to be wrong.
The Israelis have been very active with alternative stories, some obviously untrue and even withdrawn. To be expected, I guess. But people with a pro-Israeli bias will latch on to these.
Damage from parts of a misfired Palestinian rocket seem far-fetched based on the size of the explosion and the sound of the explosion. And while I think the absence of a crater is not necessary convincing I find the images of the car park are inconsistent with the reported high number of deaths. The figures must have been highly inflated
A more convincing story I have picked up is that the Israelis used a relatively small bomb targeting the car park to give an extra warning (they had made 2 requests for the hospital to be evacuated with 24 hrs. before so they were obviously considering wiping out the hospital). This could have been used by the Palestinians to provide inflated casualty figures.
All this reminds me of the missile attacks on civilians and murder of civilians in Russian occupied areas we are familiar with in the Ukraine war (remember Kramatorsk, Bucha, Mariupol, etc). Unfortunately, the initial story wins most minds – no matter how much the scientific evidence shows it to be untrue. And given the bias in our media often the initial story is provided by the media itself without any evidence.
Yes we are all munitions experts now. Last week we were all experts on Ukraine warfare, before that we were all experts on infectious diseases.
BA (first class) University of Facebook.
Andy, that reminds me of the way the Ukrainian SBU produced a recording to “prove” that the Donbass seperatists knowingly shot down the MH17 airliner. Even I picked up they had sewn 2 sperate recordings together. But this “evidence” was still a key elements in the farcical trial – while they refused to look at the declassified Russian inforamtion on the BUK missiles despite asking for public evidence related to the serial number they had found.
The quick response of the IDF providing these pieces of “evidence” for social media is the same as the UkrainianSBU. I guess it’s all about inlfuencing the popular narrative as this will effect the rspponse of lawmakers and finance.
I don’t know Ken. Actually I don’t want to treat this as a football game where we are supposed to take sides and find evidence to cheer our “team” on
It all is very dreadful.
I just found a video on Youtube released by the IDF which had some *very* graphic content of Hamas terrorists shooting up homes,
It is way worse than the video of the NZ mosque shooting, which got banned very quickly (yes I have seen it)
We need to break this cycle of endless violence and retribution.
Somehow ..
I didn’t intend to voice any of my own opinions. My comments were intended to be about alternative viewpoints to your own. Note that I mentioned videos (plural) yet you appear not to have commented on the Al Jazeera video with its’ time stamps.
“Sound of the explosion”? Since you’ve dismissed a video as being taken at a different time, why mention the sound on that dismissed video as supporting your view?
The amount of damage also appears inconsistent with the Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry’s assertion that 471 people were killed, experts said.
“We have none of the indicators of an airstrike—none,” said Michael Knights of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, an expert on military and security issues.
So let’s walk through it.
We now have video of the scene showing the explosion is from the parking lot and the buildings are in tact. There is no crater, no building demolished. This is inconsistent with the type of bomb many were suggesting yesterday. pic.twitter.com/HFKKxS8kvrpic.twitter.com/SpgG3Ktbiy
Our own Radio New Zealand is also querying the lack of evidence from Hamas that could be used to back Hamas claims, even that the loss of life also appears to be much smaller than initially stated by Hamas.
Again, not my claims or opinions as I’m not an expert. I’m just listening to the evidence coming in from both sides. But the evidence from Hamas is mostly noticeable by its absence.
Stuart, I am aware you are voicing alternative views on this tragedy – there is a lot of this happening at the moment. And the usual suspects are promoting this. Its to be expected. Unfortunately, and understadably, our media will give preferences to these alternativew claims, although I see Al Jazeera says these alternative views based on IDF claims have no grounds.
However, all this is a diversion from the real tragedy. Whatever the actual cause – an Israeli attack or a piece of a Palestinian rocket we shoud not be diverted from the actualy tragedy.
And I wish to backtrack on my comment that I thought the actual figures of killed were radically inflated by the Palestinians. My mistake was to look with my own eyes and ingrained biases at the images of the site and make an evalaution based on my own experiences. But in this case residents were fleeing from their houses and apartments in the north of Gaza becuase of Israeli threats they would attack after 24 hrs notice.
At the time of the strike there were about 3000 people who has souight refuge. Most probably considering hospital grounds as reltively safe. The Health Ministery reported that 450 died and over 1,000 were wounded in the strike. Saed Sweki lost 4 memebrs of his own family in the strike.
Given the high number of people using the hospital grounds as a refuge I now see that my limited view was very wrong. So I am withdrawing my cliam that the casualty figures are inflated. I had no right to make that claim.
No, Andy, it shouldn’t be treated like a football game. But it is easy to do this if we base our approaches simply on our horror at the actions of either of these players rather than base it on concern for eliminating the basic problems.
Yes, the actions of the Hamas terrorists were horrific, and the actions of the IDF are also horrific. The deliberate destruction of apartment buidings and bombing of hospitals and other facilities is horrific – as is the personal slaughter of families and taking of hostages. We should be appalled at both actions and we should condemn both actions. Perhaps the International Criminal Court shoudl be directing theior concern at these real war crimes rather than their distorted view on the protection of chidren in war zones and the chances of sending chidren to holiday camps.
If we look at the resolutions being presented to the UNSC at the moment I think some of the permament members are taking the “football game” approach in rejecting resolutions becuase they deal woith the crimes of both sides don’t line up with the support for their ownside. I think the resolutions which condemn the crimes of both sides, which underline the rights of nations to defend themselves against attack, but at the same time call for a cease fire, the opening of humanitarian corridors for aid and refugees, and the beginning of real negotiations aimed ot resultion of the underlying problems as envuiaged in UNSC decisions of the past (but ignored or even undermined by some permament members in recent years) are the adult way to go.
There have been several statements that this is “Israel’s 9/11” or Pearl Harbour
This was an immediate red flag to me given the history of both these events and what came after, WW2 and the “War on Terror”.
So this really begs the question, what is coming. Will we still be discussing the hospital in a week’s time? Will we be talking about the massacre of Israelis, or is something much worse going to happen?
Looks like it will spread. Biden has given his approval for an invasion and that will bring more chanrges of war crimes. There will be strong pressure on other countries to intervene. And menawhile the UNSC seems incapable of playing its role. Maybe if resolutions go to the General Assembly this could provide some pressure.
The propaganda is coming thick and fast from both IDF and Pallywood teams (check out the IDF channel on Youtube)
It’s starting to feel like a movie production, much like most of the Zelensky appearances
I was wondering why Hamas chose this point in time to launch thousands of unguided and unreliable rockets at the civilian population of Israel? What are/were their intentions? How did they expect Israel to respond? Where is their planned exit?
I anticipate that much of the rest of the world would like to know as well.
Here’s the former Palestinian envoy to the UK providing answers:
Enough. I’ll just wait for history to decide, provided I have sufficient life expectancy.
Hamas is not “occupied”. Israel pulled out in the early 2000s
Israel has been supplying food water and energy to Gaza. One of the men murdered by Hamas was driving Gazans to Israeli hospitals for treatment.
Vans in London displaying the images of kidnapped children are being pulled over by police, while pro-Hamas protestors can scream “from the river to the sea” right outside 10 Downing Street, and men at Sydney Opera House can shout “gas the Jews”
When Muslims were slaughtered in Christchurch a few years, back, there was almost universal solidarity in condemning these attacks and support for the Muslim community, including from the Jewish community.
My mother, as a German refugee coming to England in 1946, was taken to Jewish boarding school where she was treated with compassion and love.
It would be nice to see a bit more of that and less of the hatred.
Stuart, unfotunately the same could be said for some of the Jewish extremist organistations, and, sadly, for the US President.
However, I am sure such extremists do not really repreents the interests of all the citizens of Israel, Palestine or the USA.
During my working life I was in Israel for a conference and found that among some of the more political business people there was a real empathy for Palestinians and support for the 2 state solution. I imagine the same could be said of Palestinian and US society.
It is easy to despair when we see such utter hatred and cruelty from both sides. But I hold out hope that there is still a well of common sence in both societies whcih will push the extremsits aside if the is real movement to solving the Israel/Palestinina problems in accordance with the UN decsions. If only the UNSC could be allowed to carry out its proper role.
Well I’m not, for starters. I have a friend in my local community who is from Jordan, and his parents are Palestinian. He is the most kind and gentle guy I know
I have met many people who say that the Iranian people are some of the most hospitable in the world.
We can surely divorce governments from the people they allegedly represent. If Gaza is ruled by the Iranian (?) backed Hamas, then who is backing Israel? Well, there are powerful Jewish lobbies in the USA who benefit out of selling arms to Israel, which may not benefit the region at all.
My point was about Hamas, not the Palestinian people.
It’s Hamas that launched the missile strike and armed invasion against the civilians of Israel, not the Palestinian people.
It’s Hamas that captured and killed Israeli (and other) civilians, not the Palestinian people.
It’s Hamas that uses Palestinian people as human shields.
They launch their unguided missile attacks from within the built-up areas of the Gaza strip, relying on the surrounding population to deter counter battery artillery fire.
It’s Hamas that is telling Palestinians to stay in place as human shields rather than flee the upcoming Israeli military action.
Yet after poor reporting by the NYT and BBC, among others, of evidence-free statements from Hamas, many people are now decrying the attempt by Israel to rescue its’ civilians and prevent Hamas from repeating the attack.
The people of Palestine are like the rest of us in wanting peace.
Hamas is not the Palestinian people. It does not want peace. It doesn’t care how many Palestinian civilians die as a result of its’ actions. It just commits war crimes.
We need to try to step away from our tribal affiliations and embrace humanity in all its richness.
No one people is innocent of crimes. But all peoples are at their heart good people, in my view.
“Hamas is not the Palestinian people. It does not want peace. It doesn’t care how many Palestinian civilians die as a result of its’ actions. It just commits war crimes.”
Stuart G
That’s unhelpfully simplistic. As is also the insinuation that the Palestinian people just want or would be satisfied simply by obtaining a peace, going meekly back to their state of utter degradation and imprisonment.
My educated guess is that both the Palestinian people and Hamas actually *want* a dismantling of the illegal Israeli settlements, a lifting of the barbaric embargo of Gaza, a return of territories seized by the state of Israel since 1940 and repatriation of their displaced population into those lands.
Conflict won’t ever stop until Israel either succeeds in total genocide of the Palestinian people along with their culture and its aspirations or until Israel seriously entertains conceding to the bulk of those wants.
It’s all fine for Roger Walters to make his please for equal human rights. I completely agree.
However, when you have Islamic fundamentalists who adhere to Sharia Law running the show in Gaza, this is off the cards.
Sharia Law treats Jews and Christians (the people of the book) as second class citizens. Atheists, who don’t exist in the ME apparently (despite most Jews in Israel being secular) get an even rougher deal.
As for women and gays, sorry no “equal rights” there.
Some would make the same claims about Israel. I don’t have evidence for this, but I do know that about 20% of Israelis are non-Jews and can serve in parliament and in the military and legal systems
The original, 1988 version of the charter emphasize four main themes:[18]
Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;[18]
Unrestrained jihad is necessary to achieve this;[18]
Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable;[18]
Historical anti-semitic tropes that reinforce the goals.[18]
The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children.[18]
The updated 2017 charter moderates Hamas’s position by stating that Hamas is not anti-Jewish but anti-Zionist, but retains the goal of completely eliminating Israel.[18]
Notwithstanding my comments above, there are a lot of unanswered questions about the recent events in Israel.
For example, why did the IDF take 7-8 hours to respond to the attacks?
This doesn’t seem plausible.
I watched a video of the webcam footage of one of the kibbutz attacks. After the initial attack, looters from Gaza wandered in on motorcycles and cars, and took everything they wanted. Then after they left, the IDF turned up
Seriously?
Now there are suggestions of some chemical weapon false flag to justify gassing of the tunnels (via the Redacted channel – apparently the Hamas guys had “recipes” on their person for chemical weapons, like you do. )
I have no idea about the veracity of the latter, but it doesn’t look good for any of us at this stage
Stuartg
A two party “solution” is essentially conceding to forced ethnic cleansing and the establishment of two states founded upon racism. It’s rubber stamping apartheid with the artificial imposition of borders. It’s repugnant.
I find little ethical fault in rejecting the proposition.
The goal should be one state, based based in dignity and equally applied universal human rights welcome to all on the same footing.
Andy, I don’t think that you’ll find much disagreement in regard to shortcomings of Sharia law or any similar theologically based legal systems from many regular readers in here.
However strictly applied Sharia Law has never to my knowledge been a notable characteristic in Palestine’s history. In reality, the requirement for shared access to the local magic sites of several religions had created a unique level of tolerance between peoples as they lived side by side.
Even the early Crusades were launched in significant part based on Papal disinformation regarding supposed persecution of christians and pilgrims in the area.
The religious problems seem to flare up whenever the Western Europeans get involved.
Current Israeli citizenship is not entirely race based. Given that around 20% are Arab or other non-Jews, this is clearly true
There are obviously some differences.
All Jews outside of Israel have the right to Israeli citizenship, non-Jews who get Israeli citizenship have to renounce any other citizenship, unlike Jews.
Druze residents of the Golan Heights mainly hold Syrian citizenship, but have Israeli permanent residence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law
While this may seem unacceptable to us outside of Israel, we need to remind ourselves that western countries in the 20th C were quite happy to have Jews live in the own ghettos.
I visited Theresienstadt Ghetto (Czech) just before Covid and the guide noted that the ghetto was inspected by the UN and found to be in order,
That’s grim reading.
NB From the article I think Theresienstadt was visited not by the UN, which was established post WW2, but by the International Red Cross and Danish inspectors on behalf of their Govt.
Thanks for pointing out that Richard.
Theresienstadt is a pretty depressing place. The amazing thing is that people actually live there now. It is a former medieval walled town that has stuff blaring out of tannoys every hour or so.
At least it is only 30mins on the train from Prague
OK. You agree with Hamas. There should be one state, with the elimination of every Israeli “from the river to the sea.” And then Hamas would rule over the Palestinians.
Israel has frequently suggested two states: it can be summarised as “You have that land, we’ll have this, and no more fighting.”
I said two STATES, not two parties. Hamas is not a state, it’s a party representing a portion (maybe a minority?) of the Palestinian people.
Hamas’ stated aim is the elimination of all Israelis and then complete control “from the river to the sea”. That has zero compatibility with your ideal of “equally applied universal human rights welcome to all on the same footing.”
Comparing the aims of the state of Israel and the party of Hamas, I think the Israeli one has slightly more chance of world-wide approval and achieving peace.
“OK. You agree with Hamas. There should be one state, with the elimination of every Israeli “from the river to the sea.” ”
ffs now you sound like David F, manufacturing opinions and putting them in other’s mouths. Shame on you.
Let me restate what I’ve already indicated. I am a proponent of a single state solution, a state open to citizens of all ethnic and religious backgrounds, I see little ethically wrong in consequently and logically rejecting the formation two states based on racist principles and legitimising and land appropriation and illegal displacement of a whole population by the state of Israel, in essence, legitimise the results of an ethnic cleansing.
That is not calling for the elimination of every Israeli from the river to the sea. Keep you hallucinations to yourself.
Nor am I endorsing Hamas’ stated aims (I’ve never read them) or methods. Their military reaction is however, unsurprising to me, even understandable if viewed from a certain perspective – that being the realisation that civil and peaceful negotiation to date has been utterly fruitless. Israel has made it clear, and done so over many decades, that they have no intention of dismantling or ceasing their illegal seizure and occupation of Palestinian territory.
The violence doesn’t have hope of ceasing until they do. It’ll continue for centuries.
Yes, the term “two party” was an error on my part. A oversight. Context of my reply to yours would indicate that, so ok, “two state” or “two country, take your pick and the slow handclap.
I’m not criticising your beliefs. I understand them and accept them. I just don’t think Hamas would allow them to work in this situation.
Israel seems to want Israelis and Palestinians to survive together in peace by forming two independent states or countries. That’s actually not too bad an idea. It’s worked before. (Excuse the confusion engendered by the term “state” – it can mean both a country and an administrative region of a country. I hope my comments make it clear which interpretation I mean)
Hamas wants a single state. So do you.
Hamas, as separate from the Palestinian people, wants to achieve a single state, “from the river (Jordan) to the sea”, by the “elimination” of every Jew and non-Arab in the current state of Israel. I don’t think you support that aim. I certainly don’t. It sounds like genocide to me.
You sound like you want the Jews and non-Arabs of Israel to survive. That’s good. So do I. Unfortunately, in order to create a single state, Hamas’ stated aim is to slaughter them. Every one of them.
I like to think I have a degree of realism. If peace requires two independent states or countries, then I’m all for it.
As I said, one state splitting to form two independent states/countries has worked before. Right here, where I live, in the South Pacific. New Zealand (initially part of New South Wales) split from the future Commonwealth of Australia shortly before that country was formed at the start of 1900. Indeed, one interpretation of the symbolism of the Australian flag is that the large, separate, star represents the (Commonwealth of Australia) administrative state of New Zealand.
OK. So New South Wales wasn’t actively trying to kill all the inhabitants of New Zealand at the time of separation, or vice versa, but it’s still an example that one country/state can split into two and then remain at peace, sporting rivalries excepted.
If separate countries/states is what the world interprets as the best option for Israel and the Palestinian people, then I’m all for it.
I’m certainly not supportive of the genocidal single state aim that Hamas has.
Going back to Ken’s original post, “How could this happen”, I note the case of Cafe Landwer that has outlets in Canada that have been targeted by Palestinian protesters.
Stuart, I am sorry I have neglected discussion – big changes are afoot in my life at the moment.
Yous seem preoccupied with criticising Hamas. But why. Everyone of any sense has criticised Hamas. But people of sense have also asked us to look at the context and understand how the unsolved problem of Palestine-Israel has bred the sort of extremism voiced by Hamsa and Zionist nationalists.
Most Palestinians and mast Arab countries criticise Hamas – the recent of video from Patrick Lancaster gives an idea of what pro-Palestine diplomats say on this issue – diplomatically of course.
If you really want got get rid of Hamas and similar extremist groups then you should support and advocate for solution of the Israel-Palestine crisis according to UN resolutions. And a good start would be to support the UNGA resolution for a ceasefire, release of hostages and allowing humanitarian assistance to Gaza.
Restricting your world view to the crimes of Hams will not solve anything.
Yes, Hamas has kidnapped Israeli civilians (and military) as the IDF has captured Palestinians and settlers have driven Palestinians off their land.
I don’t know what Hamas has advised civilians in response to Israel threats – but what were civilians to do? In practice a lot of them fled the north and many of them fled to hospitals and Churches for sanctuary. Whatever the advice it is the civilians, the women and children who are being killed and injured. And the Israeli threats simply remined Palestinians of the ethnic cleansing and forcing out of their territory that occurred in the late 1940s.
You raise the issue of “poor reporting by the NYT and BBC, among others, of evidence-free statements . . . ” – but when has this not been the case? Why limit our concern to the current conflict?
There have been fights among Israelis citizens on the question of hostages – should there be negotiations (as many of the families ask) or should they just be considered collateral damage. In practice a number of the hostages have been released, and continue to be released, via negotiation
Given the role of context and history the solution is obvious – a concerted effort to resolve the crisis via the UN resolutions. The US has conspired against this and, with the declining influence of the US, it is now the chance for others to attempt it. An all out assault on Gaza will not eliminate Hamas – it will simply breed new recruits.
Such an assault will also likely lead to the war spreading regionally or even world wide.
If we are looking for context for the rape, beheading and other atrocities committed by Hamas, why aren’t we looking for context for the Holocaust?
After all, it didn’t happen in a vacuum.
By the way, Ken and others, my position is strongly anti-war and trying to find a way to live together in peace.
As I mentioned a while back, my mother was a German refugee from Prague. She came to England in 1945
I found this document, which is pretty disturbing reading
“In a sudden attack of the Revolutionary Guards on the radio-station in the Schwerin Strasse, now known as Stalinova, the Germans lost one of their most important positions, the radio-station. The Czechs immediately began broadcasting their slogans of hatred, calling for the extermination of the Germans: “Smrt všem Nĕmcum! Smrt všem okupantum! Death to all Germans! Death to all forces of occupation!”
“Kill the Germans wherever you meet them! Women, children, Germans of all ages – every German is our mortal enemy! Now is the chance to exterminate our enemies! Let us make an end of them!”
(It gets a lot worse, by the way, if you have the stomach for it)
Of course, there is plenty of “context” here.
No amount of context justifies the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, ever, whichever “side” you are on. “Sides” are usually created by third parties who want to stir up war and hatred.
True, Andy, it didn’t happen in a vacuum. And we are wrong to think the Holacaust and other ethnic murders of the mid 20th century were all down to Germany by any means.
Since then I have read some of the recent scholarly works coming out about the actions of Ukrainian ultranationalists in Poland and Ukraine.
It is woirryingy how we seem to have a trend in the West to rewrite the history of the last war (many people now believe we were fighting Russia) and the origins of ethnic hatred at that time.
My original comment was in response to your immediate evidence-free condemnation of Israel:
“Meanwhile, with the Israeli bombing of the Gaza hospital…”
It helps to stand back and wait for the evidence, as I pointed out.
I did wait for evidence, and see that it all now points to this “bombing” being a misfired Hamas rocket that hit the car park with propellant still on board. The only things contrary are evidence-free Hamas statements.
My comments about the BBC and NYT demonstrate that you weren’t the only person to accept the original Hamas statement at face value and then condemn Israel, all without requiring confirmatory evidence.
Stuart, I thought we were well past any controversy over the hospital bombing. Given the impossibility of proper investigation in wartime I think such discussions of this controversy and alternative mechanisms, and the Hamas charge that some of the Israelis killed in their October 7 attack died from IDF bullets, would only now be relevant as arguments for the defence if there were actual criminal prosecutions of IDF and/or Hamas leaders at the end of the war.
No, what I was reacting to was your willingness to concentrate only on the crimes of the Hamas fighters. This is a minority trend at the moment when any call for a ceasefire or resolutions condemning the military action of both sides is interpreted as an attack on Jews. The spectacle of the Israeli UN representatives donning yellow stars is one of the most extreme examples.
The UN Secretary General was attacked (and demands made for his sacking) because while condemning the October 7 attacks he made the entirely sensible observation that this conflict did not start on October 7 and that we must pay attention to the context if we are seriously interested in resolving this horrible long-term conflict.
At the moment the only reasonable body which can handle the peace process is the UN of conferences supported by the UN. And at the moment the two-state solution with capitals in East and West Jerusalem is the only internationally acceptable plan for a solution with a chance of acceptance by both sides (and don’t get sidetracked by extremist positions on either side).
I think the current political manoeuvring at the UNSC and GA are where the most realistic solutions can be worked out. And part of this manoeuvring will be to continue to downgrade the US role as it really hasn‘t helped the peace process in the past.
Is it now fashionable to refer to people who burn babies alive, rape women etc, as “fighters”?
If so, shouldn’t we refer to the NZ Mosque terrorist as a “fighter”.
After all, it started in the Quran and Hadiths. Everything has context.
All violence however depraved or amoral, can be justified, in some people’s minds.
It seems that a lot of people are OK with the murder of 1500 Israelis
I’m not justifying the bombing of civilians in Gaza either, by the way.
If you want a bit more “context”, Islamists in London and elsewhere are screaming about Khaybar, (along with the usual River to the Sea stuff)
In case you don’t know, this refers to the Battle of Khaybar was according top Wikipedia, in which the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) slaughtered Jews and enslaved the ones remaining :
” The Battle of Khaybar took place in May/June 628.[7] The Jewish Banū *Naḍīr of *Medina, who claimed to be descendants of Aaron the priest, owned lands in Khaybar and had castles, fortresses and weapons there. After Muhammad expelled them from Medina in 625, their leaders moved to their estates in Khaybar to prepare for war against Muhammad and to recruit the aid of Arab tribes. Muhammad first sent disguised guests to the homes of the leaders of Banū Naḍīr, who killed their hosts. Muhammad’s victory over the Jews of Khaybar in the subsequent battle was also aided by the distance of the settlements and their castles from one another, the absence of co-ordination between the fighting forces, the death of the leader Sallām ibn Mishkam.and a Jew who showed the Muslims the secret entrances to one of the fortresses. The castles of Khaybar had tunnels and passages, which in wartime enabled the besieged to reach water sources outside the castles.[8] Between 16 and 18 Muslims and 93 Jews were killed.[9]
After the Muslim victory, Muhammad, concerned that Khaybar would remain desolate and would not continue supplying its agricultural produce to the Hejaz, signed an agreement with the Jews that allowed many of its inhabitants to remain on their lands but required payment of half of their crops to the conquerors.”
Andy, you say “It seems that a lot of people are OK with the murder of 1500 Israelis.” I have to ask who these “lot of people” are? At the sensible level I know no one who is OK with that.
Be careful of the current trap where people are asked of being anti-semetic or anti-Jewish becuase the include (as you do) condemnation of the current bombardment of civilans of Gasa with their condemnation of the terrorist actions of Hamas on October 7.
People who cynically do this are simply attempting to udermine the poltical actions required to resolve the problem.
Kem, I guess I’m struggling, as many are, with the senselessness of this current conflict.
At least with the Ukraine issue, there were avenues to peace.
Maybe it’s best to leave the social media etc for a while. It’s not doing any of us any good.
Ken, I thought you might be interested in this Youtube channel
Corey Gil-Shuster takes questions from his followers and asks them to people (Arabs, Jews etc) in Israel and the territories.
It seems very balanced to me, no agenda from what I can see.
Open Parachute 
I’m gobsmacked by comments on left wing blogs here in NZ making excuses for the Galician Nazis because of , wait for it, the Holodomor!!
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“Or do we no longer concern ourselves with facts and instead go for the emotion of the moment or the approved narrative? ”
That would be my guess here, or that everyone involved is incredibly stupid.
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I should add that my mother was brought up in Germany and Prague in the 1940s.
She was taken to an internment camp when the Russians “liberated” Prague in the Prague Offensive at the end of the war.
Her mother and two youngest children died in one of those camps.
I could blame “Russians” or whatever, but ultimately I’m anti-war.
By the way Ken, I’m very grateful that you don’t censor my comments here. I know I was a troll back in the day, but things have changed.
Best wishes
Andy
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I’m glad to hear that last part from you Andy, and sorry to hear of members of your family becoming civilian casualties of war.
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At least the Canadian Prime Minister and Rota have since issued abject apologies.
So a case of ignorant stupidity it was.
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Richard, do you believe that these apologies are genuine? Or they will be the end of the matter?
I think they are simply apologizing for having made an ignorant mistake with the presentation. The ignorance was in their belief in the acceptance of their historical lies and their advocating of hero status. Not in the reality of Hunka’s history of even the actual presence of people like him in the Ukrainian diaspora of Canada. They know that only too well.
Trudeau, Rota and Zelensky had all met with Hunka before the parliamentary session. That was confirmed by a family member’s post – hastily withdrawn when the whole thing blew up. Hunka was well known in the Ukrainian diaspora – he had been very active in the community and the anti-war protest.
These leaders and the whole parliament had no trouble going along with the historical lies – they a
are part of the Canadian culture. Their mistake (and this all they are apologising for, is that they had thought Hunka’s involvement with the SS Galizien would by publicly acceptable.
And it would have been if not for the protest of “respectable” Jewish groups. Protests by, for example, the Russian government or Ukrainian historians, like John-Paul Himka, in Canda writing about what really happened, could have easily been ignored is disparaged as simply “Putin’s talking point” or “Russian disinformation.” But a “respectable” Jewish group had too much ideological standing to been disparaged in this manner.
Ironically, if they had chosen someone of equal standing in the diaspora who had committed war crimes far worse than hose committed by members of the SS Galizien in their fight against the Soviet army and partisans, and for “Ukrainian independence” the official Jewish groups may have been silent and other protests (including even those from the Polish government) could have been ignored. We would all have been happy.
The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and its armed force, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army had a huge responsibility for the Holocaust in Ukraine (where are large proportion of Jewish deaths ]occurred. They were also responsible for the brutal slaughter of Poles, Soviet partisans and soldiers in Ukraine and Belarus.
The Volhyn massacres of about 100,000 Poles was particularly brutal. This act of genocide is marked annually in Poland, and it is a sore point in Polish0-Ulrainian relations. Poles regularly complain about the fact that Ukraine treats the leaders of this Ukrainian ultranationalist movement as heroes.
The mistake Trudeau and Rota made was not realising how repugnant their hero worship of a known Nazi would be. Perhaps if they had chosen someone worse, they would have got away with it. OUN sounds so much more innocent.
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Sorry, late reply, I checked out for a few days, as is my wont.
“Richard, do you believe that these apologies are genuine?”
Yes, they had no choice but to apologise, it was a blunder of colossal proportions.
That is not to say that the error wasn’t reflection and result of their innate biases, or to say that they even recognise their biases as a result of having such a result exposed. They’ll continue to bash Russia/Putin. and anything or anybody associated, as a kneejerk reaction and at every opportunity, before engaging their brains.
“Or they will be the end of the matter?”
I doubt it, their bias is unlikely to have changed,
Anti Russian and anti USSR/anti Chinese prejudice is part of the N. American DNA. Its citizens have been steeped in it from cradle to grave, for well over a century.
It’s difficult to find anyone from that part of the world that you an have a rational conversation with in regard to Russia.
There was a short period in the 1990s when a detente and cooperation between USA (plus its minions) and Russia might reconcile and work together. That was when the US industrial and financial capitalists saw the economies of Russia and the Eastern bloc as being wide open for exploitation by western institutions and interests.
That era was short lived and ceased as soon as Putin demonstrated that that wasn’t going to happen. Putin would oversee the installation of his own home grown elite industrial and financial monopolists, so bugger off USA.
Since then, Putin has been Beelzebub incarnate to the USA, and Russia is again their gravest enemy.
Back to the Ukraine topic, the 2016 film Wolyn or “Hatred” is a visceral illustration of the Volhynia massacres. I presume that you have mentioned it before, it’s accessible on YouTube.
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I would like to stress,that we can discuss historical grievances, massacres, invasions alliances etc over and over, and yes, it’s all relevant, particularly to those on the ground in situ.
But in my view this current conflict boils down to US hegemony and the struggle for world economic dominance by the USA and its capitalist interests. Without that, USA would have no military interest in anything outside ensuring the integrity its borders and internal sovereignty.
The USA will stand no rivals.
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Yes, I have seen Wolyn. It was chilling – especially the ultranationalists yelling Slave Ukraini whilst slaughtering the Poles. That is truly a fascist slogan and the virtue signalers who have adopted are simply stupid.
Meanwhile, with the Israeli bombing of the Gaza hospital it looks like the world may have bigger problems than the relatively civil Ukrainian conflict.
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Israel is embarking on a barrel shoot of a tightly imprisoned population.
True to form, USA is making sure that nobody interrupts the slaughter.
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Ken,
So far, it would appear that Al Jazeera and Channel 12 both have independent video of the launch and impact of the missile a few seconds later – neither moving their camera on its tripod.
Video shows minimal damage to the hospital. It appears the car park was hit.
Video doesn’t show crater(s) typical of a bomb impact.
The NYT (pro-Palestinian) keeps changing its front page headline – from “Israeli strike,” to “strike,” to “blast”, as well as changing the number of killed.
Applying bayesian theory, it seems that a misfired Hamas missile is the most likely cause of the explosion in the hospital car park.
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You may have seen this discussion Richard – but I found it interesting. Our media is virtually silent on the huge divisions between the secular left and extreme religious right in Israel.
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You may have seen this discussion Richard – but I found it interesting. Our media is virtually silent on the huge divisions between the secular left and extrem religious right in Israel.
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I have always found resort to Bayesian theory in religious and political discussion extremely dishonest – a mechanism to give “scientific” legitimacy to bias.
But, yes, one must be wary of an initial emotional reaction. And also wary of attempts to confuse the issue with disinformation (which both sides are certainly capable of).
In my observation the missile video has already been discredited (time stamps and when viewed from different perspective the original story is shown to be wrong.
The Israelis have been very active with alternative stories, some obviously untrue and even withdrawn. To be expected, I guess. But people with a pro-Israeli bias will latch on to these.
Damage from parts of a misfired Palestinian rocket seem far-fetched based on the size of the explosion and the sound of the explosion. And while I think the absence of a crater is not necessary convincing I find the images of the car park are inconsistent with the reported high number of deaths. The figures must have been highly inflated
A more convincing story I have picked up is that the Israelis used a relatively small bomb targeting the car park to give an extra warning (they had made 2 requests for the hospital to be evacuated with 24 hrs. before so they were obviously considering wiping out the hospital). This could have been used by the Palestinians to provide inflated casualty figures.
All this reminds me of the missile attacks on civilians and murder of civilians in Russian occupied areas we are familiar with in the Ukraine war (remember Kramatorsk, Bucha, Mariupol, etc). Unfortunately, the initial story wins most minds – no matter how much the scientific evidence shows it to be untrue. And given the bias in our media often the initial story is provided by the media itself without any evidence.
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There is also a recording of a phone call between Hamas operatives confirming that it is one of theirs .
This hasn’t been denied by Hamas.
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Are we all munitions experts now, do we know what “typical bomb craters” are?
I wonder if its the same result as a missile flying in an open window or skylight and going off in the basement. (/sarc)
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Yes we are all munitions experts now. Last week we were all experts on Ukraine warfare, before that we were all experts on infectious diseases.
BA (first class) University of Facebook.
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Andy, that reminds me of the way the Ukrainian SBU produced a recording to “prove” that the Donbass seperatists knowingly shot down the MH17 airliner. Even I picked up they had sewn 2 sperate recordings together. But this “evidence” was still a key elements in the farcical trial – while they refused to look at the declassified Russian inforamtion on the BUK missiles despite asking for public evidence related to the serial number they had found.
The quick response of the IDF providing these pieces of “evidence” for social media is the same as the UkrainianSBU. I guess it’s all about inlfuencing the popular narrative as this will effect the rspponse of lawmakers and finance.
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I don’t know Ken. Actually I don’t want to treat this as a football game where we are supposed to take sides and find evidence to cheer our “team” on
It all is very dreadful.
I just found a video on Youtube released by the IDF which had some *very* graphic content of Hamas terrorists shooting up homes,
It is way worse than the video of the NZ mosque shooting, which got banned very quickly (yes I have seen it)
We need to break this cycle of endless violence and retribution.
Somehow ..
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Well said, Andy.
Over on Bradbury’s TDB site they’re having a competition of the dead and beheaded baby tally .
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Ken,
I didn’t intend to voice any of my own opinions. My comments were intended to be about alternative viewpoints to your own. Note that I mentioned videos (plural) yet you appear not to have commented on the Al Jazeera video with its’ time stamps.
“Sound of the explosion”? Since you’ve dismissed a video as being taken at a different time, why mention the sound on that dismissed video as supporting your view?
Let’s see:
Wall Street Journal
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-tries-to-back-up-claims-it-didnt-attack-gaza-hospital-a8cc3405
The amount of damage also appears inconsistent with the Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry’s assertion that 471 people were killed, experts said.
“We have none of the indicators of an airstrike—none,” said Michael Knights of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, an expert on military and security issues.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/fog-of-war-rush-to-judgment-and-the-day-after
(I hope those work, I’m on a tablet).
Our own Radio New Zealand is also querying the lack of evidence from Hamas that could be used to back Hamas claims, even that the loss of life also appears to be much smaller than initially stated by Hamas.
Again, not my claims or opinions as I’m not an expert. I’m just listening to the evidence coming in from both sides. But the evidence from Hamas is mostly noticeable by its absence.
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Stuart, I am aware you are voicing alternative views on this tragedy – there is a lot of this happening at the moment. And the usual suspects are promoting this. Its to be expected. Unfortunately, and understadably, our media will give preferences to these alternativew claims, although I see Al Jazeera says these alternative views based on IDF claims have no grounds.
https://x.com/AJEnglish/status/1714984258358391057?t=epe_aBIPXT3RQ5VWK_ljTw&s=09
However, all this is a diversion from the real tragedy. Whatever the actual cause – an Israeli attack or a piece of a Palestinian rocket we shoud not be diverted from the actualy tragedy.
And I wish to backtrack on my comment that I thought the actual figures of killed were radically inflated by the Palestinians. My mistake was to look with my own eyes and ingrained biases at the images of the site and make an evalaution based on my own experiences. But in this case residents were fleeing from their houses and apartments in the north of Gaza becuase of Israeli threats they would attack after 24 hrs notice.
The report fom RTs Arabic reporter, Saed Sweki, put the situation into focus for me. https://www.rt.com/news/585299-gaza-hospital-relatives-killed/
At the time of the strike there were about 3000 people who has souight refuge. Most probably considering hospital grounds as reltively safe. The Health Ministery reported that 450 died and over 1,000 were wounded in the strike. Saed Sweki lost 4 memebrs of his own family in the strike.
Given the high number of people using the hospital grounds as a refuge I now see that my limited view was very wrong. So I am withdrawing my cliam that the casualty figures are inflated. I had no right to make that claim.
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No, Andy, it shouldn’t be treated like a football game. But it is easy to do this if we base our approaches simply on our horror at the actions of either of these players rather than base it on concern for eliminating the basic problems.
Yes, the actions of the Hamas terrorists were horrific, and the actions of the IDF are also horrific. The deliberate destruction of apartment buidings and bombing of hospitals and other facilities is horrific – as is the personal slaughter of families and taking of hostages. We should be appalled at both actions and we should condemn both actions. Perhaps the International Criminal Court shoudl be directing theior concern at these real war crimes rather than their distorted view on the protection of chidren in war zones and the chances of sending chidren to holiday camps.
If we look at the resolutions being presented to the UNSC at the moment I think some of the permament members are taking the “football game” approach in rejecting resolutions becuase they deal woith the crimes of both sides don’t line up with the support for their ownside. I think the resolutions which condemn the crimes of both sides, which underline the rights of nations to defend themselves against attack, but at the same time call for a cease fire, the opening of humanitarian corridors for aid and refugees, and the beginning of real negotiations aimed ot resultion of the underlying problems as envuiaged in UNSC decisions of the past (but ignored or even undermined by some permament members in recent years) are the adult way to go.
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There have been several statements that this is “Israel’s 9/11” or Pearl Harbour
This was an immediate red flag to me given the history of both these events and what came after, WW2 and the “War on Terror”.
So this really begs the question, what is coming. Will we still be discussing the hospital in a week’s time? Will we be talking about the massacre of Israelis, or is something much worse going to happen?
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Looks like it will spread. Biden has given his approval for an invasion and that will bring more chanrges of war crimes. There will be strong pressure on other countries to intervene. And menawhile the UNSC seems incapable of playing its role. Maybe if resolutions go to the General Assembly this could provide some pressure.
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The propaganda is coming thick and fast from both IDF and Pallywood teams (check out the IDF channel on Youtube)
It’s starting to feel like a movie production, much like most of the Zelensky appearances
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I was wondering why Hamas chose this point in time to launch thousands of unguided and unreliable rockets at the civilian population of Israel? What are/were their intentions? How did they expect Israel to respond? Where is their planned exit?
I anticipate that much of the rest of the world would like to know as well.
Here’s the former Palestinian envoy to the UK providing answers:
Enough. I’ll just wait for history to decide, provided I have sufficient life expectancy.
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Hamas is not “occupied”. Israel pulled out in the early 2000s
Israel has been supplying food water and energy to Gaza. One of the men murdered by Hamas was driving Gazans to Israeli hospitals for treatment.
Vans in London displaying the images of kidnapped children are being pulled over by police, while pro-Hamas protestors can scream “from the river to the sea” right outside 10 Downing Street, and men at Sydney Opera House can shout “gas the Jews”
When Muslims were slaughtered in Christchurch a few years, back, there was almost universal solidarity in condemning these attacks and support for the Muslim community, including from the Jewish community.
My mother, as a German refugee coming to England in 1946, was taken to Jewish boarding school where she was treated with compassion and love.
It would be nice to see a bit more of that and less of the hatred.
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It would be nice to see a bit more of compassion and love and less of the hatred.
I completely agree with that. If my ancestors hadn’t disregarded the teachings of antipathy between their multiple religions I wouldn’t be here.
Looking at Hamas, their only interpretable aim appears to be prevention of peace in the Middle East, and possibly in the rest of the world.
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According to a RNZ report, Biden has declared that he is a Zionist.
How helpful, but I guess it’s ensuring a few campaign pledges.
It all just keeps getting worse.
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Stuart, unfotunately the same could be said for some of the Jewish extremist organistations, and, sadly, for the US President.
However, I am sure such extremists do not really repreents the interests of all the citizens of Israel, Palestine or the USA.
During my working life I was in Israel for a conference and found that among some of the more political business people there was a real empathy for Palestinians and support for the 2 state solution. I imagine the same could be said of Palestinian and US society.
It is easy to despair when we see such utter hatred and cruelty from both sides. But I hold out hope that there is still a well of common sence in both societies whcih will push the extremsits aside if the is real movement to solving the Israel/Palestinina problems in accordance with the UN decsions. If only the UNSC could be allowed to carry out its proper role.
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Hamas do not have an empathy for Palestinians. They are happy to kill them for their cause
The son of the Hamas leader said this on a TV interview.
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Andy, neither do Jewish extremists have sympathy for Palestinians. That is the nature of extremism.
But surely there will be a core of sensible Palestinians who are horrified at the recent extremism of the Hamas fighters.
We should avoid the trap of finding a popualtion gulty for the crimes of indiviuals.
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“We should avoid the trap of finding a popualtion gulty for the crimes of indiviuals.”
Agreed, but who is?
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It’s happening all the time in the middle east at the moment, Andy.
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Well I’m not, for starters. I have a friend in my local community who is from Jordan, and his parents are Palestinian. He is the most kind and gentle guy I know
I have met many people who say that the Iranian people are some of the most hospitable in the world.
We can surely divorce governments from the people they allegedly represent. If Gaza is ruled by the Iranian (?) backed Hamas, then who is backing Israel? Well, there are powerful Jewish lobbies in the USA who benefit out of selling arms to Israel, which may not benefit the region at all.
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Ken,
My point was about Hamas, not the Palestinian people.
It’s Hamas that launched the missile strike and armed invasion against the civilians of Israel, not the Palestinian people.
It’s Hamas that captured and killed Israeli (and other) civilians, not the Palestinian people.
It’s Hamas that uses Palestinian people as human shields.
They launch their unguided missile attacks from within the built-up areas of the Gaza strip, relying on the surrounding population to deter counter battery artillery fire.
It’s Hamas that is telling Palestinians to stay in place as human shields rather than flee the upcoming Israeli military action.
Yet after poor reporting by the NYT and BBC, among others, of evidence-free statements from Hamas, many people are now decrying the attempt by Israel to rescue its’ civilians and prevent Hamas from repeating the attack.
The people of Palestine are like the rest of us in wanting peace.
Hamas is not the Palestinian people. It does not want peace. It doesn’t care how many Palestinian civilians die as a result of its’ actions. It just commits war crimes.
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100% Stuart, that was my point too.
We need to try to step away from our tribal affiliations and embrace humanity in all its richness.
No one people is innocent of crimes. But all peoples are at their heart good people, in my view.
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“Hamas is not the Palestinian people. It does not want peace. It doesn’t care how many Palestinian civilians die as a result of its’ actions. It just commits war crimes.”
Stuart G
That’s unhelpfully simplistic. As is also the insinuation that the Palestinian people just want or would be satisfied simply by obtaining a peace, going meekly back to their state of utter degradation and imprisonment.
My educated guess is that both the Palestinian people and Hamas actually *want* a dismantling of the illegal Israeli settlements, a lifting of the barbaric embargo of Gaza, a return of territories seized by the state of Israel since 1940 and repatriation of their displaced population into those lands.
Conflict won’t ever stop until Israel either succeeds in total genocide of the Palestinian people along with their culture and its aspirations or until Israel seriously entertains conceding to the bulk of those wants.
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….in the interim
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In the interim
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Richard,
Which state has five times proposed a two country settlement of the problem? Israel.
And who has five times rejected a two country settlement of the problem?
I’ll leave that to you.
Sometimes simplicity helps (Occam’s razor, and all that).
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It’s all fine for Roger Walters to make his please for equal human rights. I completely agree.
However, when you have Islamic fundamentalists who adhere to Sharia Law running the show in Gaza, this is off the cards.
Sharia Law treats Jews and Christians (the people of the book) as second class citizens. Atheists, who don’t exist in the ME apparently (despite most Jews in Israel being secular) get an even rougher deal.
As for women and gays, sorry no “equal rights” there.
Some would make the same claims about Israel. I don’t have evidence for this, but I do know that about 20% of Israelis are non-Jews and can serve in parliament and in the military and legal systems
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Wikipedia:
The original, 1988 version of the charter emphasize four main themes:[18]
Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;[18]
Unrestrained jihad is necessary to achieve this;[18]
Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable;[18]
Historical anti-semitic tropes that reinforce the goals.[18]
The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children.[18]
The updated 2017 charter moderates Hamas’s position by stating that Hamas is not anti-Jewish but anti-Zionist, but retains the goal of completely eliminating Israel.[18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
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Notwithstanding my comments above, there are a lot of unanswered questions about the recent events in Israel.
For example, why did the IDF take 7-8 hours to respond to the attacks?
This doesn’t seem plausible.
I watched a video of the webcam footage of one of the kibbutz attacks. After the initial attack, looters from Gaza wandered in on motorcycles and cars, and took everything they wanted. Then after they left, the IDF turned up
Seriously?
Now there are suggestions of some chemical weapon false flag to justify gassing of the tunnels (via the Redacted channel – apparently the Hamas guys had “recipes” on their person for chemical weapons, like you do. )
I have no idea about the veracity of the latter, but it doesn’t look good for any of us at this stage
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Stuartg
A two party “solution” is essentially conceding to forced ethnic cleansing and the establishment of two states founded upon racism. It’s rubber stamping apartheid with the artificial imposition of borders. It’s repugnant.
I find little ethical fault in rejecting the proposition.
The goal should be one state, based based in dignity and equally applied universal human rights welcome to all on the same footing.
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Andy, I don’t think that you’ll find much disagreement in regard to shortcomings of Sharia law or any similar theologically based legal systems from many regular readers in here.
However strictly applied Sharia Law has never to my knowledge been a notable characteristic in Palestine’s history. In reality, the requirement for shared access to the local magic sites of several religions had created a unique level of tolerance between peoples as they lived side by side.
Even the early Crusades were launched in significant part based on Papal disinformation regarding supposed persecution of christians and pilgrims in the area.
The religious problems seem to flare up whenever the Western Europeans get involved.
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Current Israeli citizenship is not entirely race based. Given that around 20% are Arab or other non-Jews, this is clearly true
There are obviously some differences.
All Jews outside of Israel have the right to Israeli citizenship, non-Jews who get Israeli citizenship have to renounce any other citizenship, unlike Jews.
Druze residents of the Golan Heights mainly hold Syrian citizenship, but have Israeli permanent residence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law
While this may seem unacceptable to us outside of Israel, we need to remind ourselves that western countries in the 20th C were quite happy to have Jews live in the own ghettos.
I visited Theresienstadt Ghetto (Czech) just before Covid and the guide noted that the ghetto was inspected by the UN and found to be in order,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_Ghetto
So, it’s complicated ..
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That’s grim reading.
NB From the article I think Theresienstadt was visited not by the UN, which was established post WW2, but by the International Red Cross and Danish inspectors on behalf of their Govt.
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Thanks for pointing out that Richard.
Theresienstadt is a pretty depressing place. The amazing thing is that people actually live there now. It is a former medieval walled town that has stuff blaring out of tannoys every hour or so.
At least it is only 30mins on the train from Prague
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Richard,
OK. You agree with Hamas. There should be one state, with the elimination of every Israeli “from the river to the sea.” And then Hamas would rule over the Palestinians.
Israel has frequently suggested two states: it can be summarised as “You have that land, we’ll have this, and no more fighting.”
I said two STATES, not two parties. Hamas is not a state, it’s a party representing a portion (maybe a minority?) of the Palestinian people.
Hamas’ stated aim is the elimination of all Israelis and then complete control “from the river to the sea”. That has zero compatibility with your ideal of “equally applied universal human rights welcome to all on the same footing.”
Comparing the aims of the state of Israel and the party of Hamas, I think the Israeli one has slightly more chance of world-wide approval and achieving peace.
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“OK. You agree with Hamas. There should be one state, with the elimination of every Israeli “from the river to the sea.” ”
ffs now you sound like David F, manufacturing opinions and putting them in other’s mouths. Shame on you.
Let me restate what I’ve already indicated. I am a proponent of a single state solution, a state open to citizens of all ethnic and religious backgrounds, I see little ethically wrong in consequently and logically rejecting the formation two states based on racist principles and legitimising and land appropriation and illegal displacement of a whole population by the state of Israel, in essence, legitimise the results of an ethnic cleansing.
That is not calling for the elimination of every Israeli from the river to the sea. Keep you hallucinations to yourself.
Nor am I endorsing Hamas’ stated aims (I’ve never read them) or methods. Their military reaction is however, unsurprising to me, even understandable if viewed from a certain perspective – that being the realisation that civil and peaceful negotiation to date has been utterly fruitless. Israel has made it clear, and done so over many decades, that they have no intention of dismantling or ceasing their illegal seizure and occupation of Palestinian territory.
The violence doesn’t have hope of ceasing until they do. It’ll continue for centuries.
Yes, the term “two party” was an error on my part. A oversight. Context of my reply to yours would indicate that, so ok, “two state” or “two country, take your pick and the slow handclap.
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Richard,
I’m not criticising your beliefs. I understand them and accept them. I just don’t think Hamas would allow them to work in this situation.
Israel seems to want Israelis and Palestinians to survive together in peace by forming two independent states or countries. That’s actually not too bad an idea. It’s worked before. (Excuse the confusion engendered by the term “state” – it can mean both a country and an administrative region of a country. I hope my comments make it clear which interpretation I mean)
Hamas wants a single state. So do you.
Hamas, as separate from the Palestinian people, wants to achieve a single state, “from the river (Jordan) to the sea”, by the “elimination” of every Jew and non-Arab in the current state of Israel. I don’t think you support that aim. I certainly don’t. It sounds like genocide to me.
You sound like you want the Jews and non-Arabs of Israel to survive. That’s good. So do I. Unfortunately, in order to create a single state, Hamas’ stated aim is to slaughter them. Every one of them.
I like to think I have a degree of realism. If peace requires two independent states or countries, then I’m all for it.
As I said, one state splitting to form two independent states/countries has worked before. Right here, where I live, in the South Pacific. New Zealand (initially part of New South Wales) split from the future Commonwealth of Australia shortly before that country was formed at the start of 1900. Indeed, one interpretation of the symbolism of the Australian flag is that the large, separate, star represents the (Commonwealth of Australia) administrative state of New Zealand.
OK. So New South Wales wasn’t actively trying to kill all the inhabitants of New Zealand at the time of separation, or vice versa, but it’s still an example that one country/state can split into two and then remain at peace, sporting rivalries excepted.
If separate countries/states is what the world interprets as the best option for Israel and the Palestinian people, then I’m all for it.
I’m certainly not supportive of the genocidal single state aim that Hamas has.
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Going back to Ken’s original post, “How could this happen”, I note the case of Cafe Landwer that has outlets in Canada that have been targeted by Palestinian protesters.
The original owners of the chain were driven out of Germany by antisemitism, particularly KristallNacht
https://www.cp24.com/news/toronto-mayor-condemns-pro-palestinian-protest-that-targeted-jewish-owned-restaurant-1.6612892
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Stuart, I am sorry I have neglected discussion – big changes are afoot in my life at the moment.
Yous seem preoccupied with criticising Hamas. But why. Everyone of any sense has criticised Hamas. But people of sense have also asked us to look at the context and understand how the unsolved problem of Palestine-Israel has bred the sort of extremism voiced by Hamsa and Zionist nationalists.
Most Palestinians and mast Arab countries criticise Hamas – the recent of video from Patrick Lancaster gives an idea of what pro-Palestine diplomats say on this issue – diplomatically of course.
If you really want got get rid of Hamas and similar extremist groups then you should support and advocate for solution of the Israel-Palestine crisis according to UN resolutions. And a good start would be to support the UNGA resolution for a ceasefire, release of hostages and allowing humanitarian assistance to Gaza.
Restricting your world view to the crimes of Hams will not solve anything.
Yes, Hamas has kidnapped Israeli civilians (and military) as the IDF has captured Palestinians and settlers have driven Palestinians off their land.
I don’t know what Hamas has advised civilians in response to Israel threats – but what were civilians to do? In practice a lot of them fled the north and many of them fled to hospitals and Churches for sanctuary. Whatever the advice it is the civilians, the women and children who are being killed and injured. And the Israeli threats simply remined Palestinians of the ethnic cleansing and forcing out of their territory that occurred in the late 1940s.
You raise the issue of “poor reporting by the NYT and BBC, among others, of evidence-free statements . . . ” – but when has this not been the case? Why limit our concern to the current conflict?
There have been fights among Israelis citizens on the question of hostages – should there be negotiations (as many of the families ask) or should they just be considered collateral damage. In practice a number of the hostages have been released, and continue to be released, via negotiation
Given the role of context and history the solution is obvious – a concerted effort to resolve the crisis via the UN resolutions. The US has conspired against this and, with the declining influence of the US, it is now the chance for others to attempt it. An all out assault on Gaza will not eliminate Hamas – it will simply breed new recruits.
Such an assault will also likely lead to the war spreading regionally or even world wide.
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If we are looking for context for the rape, beheading and other atrocities committed by Hamas, why aren’t we looking for context for the Holocaust?
After all, it didn’t happen in a vacuum.
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By the way, Ken and others, my position is strongly anti-war and trying to find a way to live together in peace.
As I mentioned a while back, my mother was a German refugee from Prague. She came to England in 1945
I found this document, which is pretty disturbing reading
“In a sudden attack of the Revolutionary Guards on the radio-station in the Schwerin Strasse, now known as Stalinova, the Germans lost one of their most important positions, the radio-station. The Czechs immediately began broadcasting their slogans of hatred, calling for the extermination of the Germans: “Smrt všem Nĕmcum! Smrt všem okupantum! Death to all Germans! Death to all forces of occupation!”
“Kill the Germans wherever you meet them! Women, children, Germans of all ages – every German is our mortal enemy! Now is the chance to exterminate our enemies! Let us make an end of them!”
https://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/whitebook/desg25.html
(It gets a lot worse, by the way, if you have the stomach for it)
Of course, there is plenty of “context” here.
No amount of context justifies the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, ever, whichever “side” you are on. “Sides” are usually created by third parties who want to stir up war and hatred.
I hope I make myself clear
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True, Andy, it didn’t happen in a vacuum. And we are wrong to think the Holacaust and other ethnic murders of the mid 20th century were all down to Germany by any means.
I found this out when looking back at the hsitory of the Khatyn massacre in Belorus (I visited the very moving memorial years ago when I didn’t realsie what had really happened – see my article “Don’t put all the blame on the Germans – a lesson from World War II”
Since then I have read some of the recent scholarly works coming out about the actions of Ukrainian ultranationalists in Poland and Ukraine.
It is woirryingy how we seem to have a trend in the West to rewrite the history of the last war (many people now believe we were fighting Russia) and the origins of ethnic hatred at that time.
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Hitler 2 Shop in Gaza:
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Ken,
My original comment was in response to your immediate evidence-free condemnation of Israel:
“Meanwhile, with the Israeli bombing of the Gaza hospital…”
It helps to stand back and wait for the evidence, as I pointed out.
I did wait for evidence, and see that it all now points to this “bombing” being a misfired Hamas rocket that hit the car park with propellant still on board. The only things contrary are evidence-free Hamas statements.
My comments about the BBC and NYT demonstrate that you weren’t the only person to accept the original Hamas statement at face value and then condemn Israel, all without requiring confirmatory evidence.
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Stuart, I thought we were well past any controversy over the hospital bombing. Given the impossibility of proper investigation in wartime I think such discussions of this controversy and alternative mechanisms, and the Hamas charge that some of the Israelis killed in their October 7 attack died from IDF bullets, would only now be relevant as arguments for the defence if there were actual criminal prosecutions of IDF and/or Hamas leaders at the end of the war.
No, what I was reacting to was your willingness to concentrate only on the crimes of the Hamas fighters. This is a minority trend at the moment when any call for a ceasefire or resolutions condemning the military action of both sides is interpreted as an attack on Jews. The spectacle of the Israeli UN representatives donning yellow stars is one of the most extreme examples.
The UN Secretary General was attacked (and demands made for his sacking) because while condemning the October 7 attacks he made the entirely sensible observation that this conflict did not start on October 7 and that we must pay attention to the context if we are seriously interested in resolving this horrible long-term conflict.
At the moment the only reasonable body which can handle the peace process is the UN of conferences supported by the UN. And at the moment the two-state solution with capitals in East and West Jerusalem is the only internationally acceptable plan for a solution with a chance of acceptance by both sides (and don’t get sidetracked by extremist positions on either side).
I think the current political manoeuvring at the UNSC and GA are where the most realistic solutions can be worked out. And part of this manoeuvring will be to continue to downgrade the US role as it really hasn‘t helped the peace process in the past.
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Is it now fashionable to refer to people who burn babies alive, rape women etc, as “fighters”?
If so, shouldn’t we refer to the NZ Mosque terrorist as a “fighter”.
After all, it started in the Quran and Hadiths. Everything has context.
All violence however depraved or amoral, can be justified, in some people’s minds.
It seems that a lot of people are OK with the murder of 1500 Israelis
I’m not justifying the bombing of civilians in Gaza either, by the way.
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If you want a bit more “context”, Islamists in London and elsewhere are screaming about Khaybar, (along with the usual River to the Sea stuff)
In case you don’t know, this refers to the Battle of Khaybar was according top Wikipedia, in which the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) slaughtered Jews and enslaved the ones remaining :
” The Battle of Khaybar took place in May/June 628.[7] The Jewish Banū *Naḍīr of *Medina, who claimed to be descendants of Aaron the priest, owned lands in Khaybar and had castles, fortresses and weapons there. After Muhammad expelled them from Medina in 625, their leaders moved to their estates in Khaybar to prepare for war against Muhammad and to recruit the aid of Arab tribes. Muhammad first sent disguised guests to the homes of the leaders of Banū Naḍīr, who killed their hosts. Muhammad’s victory over the Jews of Khaybar in the subsequent battle was also aided by the distance of the settlements and their castles from one another, the absence of co-ordination between the fighting forces, the death of the leader Sallām ibn Mishkam.and a Jew who showed the Muslims the secret entrances to one of the fortresses. The castles of Khaybar had tunnels and passages, which in wartime enabled the besieged to reach water sources outside the castles.[8] Between 16 and 18 Muslims and 93 Jews were killed.[9]
After the Muslim victory, Muhammad, concerned that Khaybar would remain desolate and would not continue supplying its agricultural produce to the Hejaz, signed an agreement with the Jews that allowed many of its inhabitants to remain on their lands but required payment of half of their crops to the conquerors.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaybar
But yes, a “two state solution” is what will solve this. OK..
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Andy, you say “It seems that a lot of people are OK with the murder of 1500 Israelis.” I have to ask who these “lot of people” are? At the sensible level I know no one who is OK with that.
Be careful of the current trap where people are asked of being anti-semetic or anti-Jewish becuase the include (as you do) condemnation of the current bombardment of civilans of Gasa with their condemnation of the terrorist actions of Hamas on October 7.
People who cynically do this are simply attempting to udermine the poltical actions required to resolve the problem.
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Kem, I guess I’m struggling, as many are, with the senselessness of this current conflict.
At least with the Ukraine issue, there were avenues to peace.
Maybe it’s best to leave the social media etc for a while. It’s not doing any of us any good.
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Ken, I thought you might be interested in this Youtube channel
Corey Gil-Shuster takes questions from his followers and asks them to people (Arabs, Jews etc) in Israel and the territories.
It seems very balanced to me, no agenda from what I can see.
You have to watch a few to get a feel for it.
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